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atomoid
Good to hear they are finally going to try something out!
The grapple seems to be optimized for securing specifically designed handles, but as we've seen such challenges spark ingenuity in the past there will be no shortage of novel approaches put forward, if complete instrument deployment failure is assumed after exhausting all safer approaches, then with nothing to lose and power to spare, push comes to shove more ambitious possibilities to emerge.
Worst case, could the grapple secure an accessible portion of played-out tether between its 'fingers' and be able to relocate even a reclined probe back to a useable place whether it be the original hole or a new divot crudely scraped by the shovel? just spooling whimsicals here but the grapple might even be able to mimic the effect of the tether spool enclosure and hover the probe to slowly lower over the course of the percussion process. any such Hail-Mary approach would surely be way down the road.

Found this Q&A article regarding their latest plans.
Here's to hoping the pressure of the arm can induce friction enough to help the mole establish and sustain its own friction as it descends into presumably more compacted soils, assuming that implies increased friction to work with, but it may just mean creating a more resilient hollow in which to get stuck.
Relocating the probe: "the mole was never designed to be handled that way" at some point they could try to handle it in a way it was NOT designed for.
No-friction scenario: As a lay person, I'm havent studied up and am somewhat out of sync with accepted assumptions, not attempting to second guess, but trying to understand why just below the surface it would not be expected to be a sand and dust covered jumbled rockpile atop bedrock, as that seems to be what we see elsewhere. they suggest a few percent chance of hitting rock, i would have assumed it over 90% within the first meter. But anyways, since the no-friction scenario seems to fit with the data, was SEIS used to determine if the probe is or is not hitting rock? I'd assume SEIS would yield a very different signal if is hitting rock vs the no-friction 'bouncing' scenario, or maybe the signal isnt that different if the sand/dust gets compacted enough and resemble a signal from rock.?
Phil Stooke
I think the SEIS team did listen very carefully to the hammering to help the diagnostics.

Anyway, it looks like I will get my wish and have some more events to map later this month. The idea of pressing on the surface to try to increase friction leads me to think a few bearing tests (pressing down on the surface to see how it responds) might have been useful, but hindsight is always helpful. Or in this case, not!

Phil
nprev
More hindsight/speculation: I wonder if SEIS could have been used to 'map' a small area of the soil down to a depth of several centimeters by moving the mole to slightly different locations and actuating the driver while the mole was still caged in the assembly. Might've been able to infer some subsurface rocks that way.
PaulH51
Not sure why they have to wait until the end of June to start lifting the housing, but the grapple is currently placed above the pickup pin on HP3

Contained in the same release was news regarding the detection during May 22, 2019 of what is believed to be a marsquake of magnitude 3.0.

In a tweet from SEIS they stated that it was 'five to ten times more powerful than the previous ones' (back in April) Hopefully that could have provided some early data on the interior structure of the planet, or maybe they're waiting for a bigger one for that smile.gif
PaulH51
The HP3 mission blog from Instrument Lead Tilman Spohn has now been updated with some additional details not in the press release
stevesliva
QUOTE (PaulH51 @ Jun 6 2019, 01:24 AM) *
Not sure why they have to wait until the end of June to start lifting the housing, but the grapple is currently placed above the pickup pin on HP3

May just be start / end semantics. Because I read everything as saying they're starting ASAP, but that it will be deliberate. From Tilman @ DLR:

QUOTE
a operations scheme has been designed where the lifting occurs in several steps with careful examinations on the way. This is then the major reason why the operation will take a while, until mid next month or possibly even later.

For those trying to parse that blog entry, the ideal spot 1 is unreachable without moving the support structure. Spot 2 is also unreachable. Only "Achievable Spot 2" can be pressed on without moving the structure. The graph indicates that even unachievable spot 2 is marginal, so they really think Spot 1 is necessary... so they conclude it must be moved.
PaulH51
Hard to be sure, but it appears close to a capture smile.gif (sol 189 IDC GIF)
Click to view attachment
PaulH51
The grapple on the Robotic arm that is currently attached to HP3 was lifted a little on sol 193 as seen in the 4 IDC frames that were acquired close to sunset. The structure was not lifted off the ground, but raising the arm appears to have taken up the slack on the lifting pin. The latest of those 4 IDC frames is time stamped as 5:30 pm local time, so unless they are planning a little more lifting in twilight, we may have to await until tomorrow to see the first lift that could take place this week link
fredk
A correction at the bottom of that page says the move is planned for later in June, as we'd heard before.
PaulH51
QUOTE (fredk @ Jun 13 2019, 10:11 PM) *
A correction at the bottom of that page says the move is planned for later in June, as we'd heard before.

And there was me getting ready for the lift (sigh)
Small print, always look for and read the small print...
PaulH51
DLR HP3 Blog Logbook entry 14 June 2019:

QUOTE
The support structure lifting operation has begun! The GIF below shows how the grapple of the arm grabs the hook at the top of the SSA.

The lifting is foreseen to start on 22 June - first at 12 centimetres, then at 25 centimetres on 25 June and, finally, on 28 June the structure should be completely lifted and moved about 10 centimetres towards the lander.


link to full blog
nogal
Above the blog entry for June 6 there is an animated GIF (of the June 14 entry).
The shadow of the grapple helped me understand the SSA's hook capture.
Fernando
Phil Stooke
This is my suggestion for the identity of the hill seen to the northwest and illustrated a few posts back. I think candidate 2 is a better bet than candidate 1.

Phil

Click to view attachment
Phil Stooke
Sol 203 - the HP3 was lifted a few cm.

Phil
alan
Someone is claiming the mole is out:

https://twitter.com/Simon11129621/status/1142858628568891392

Click to view attachment
Steve G
Was this expected or is this a bad thing?
PaulH51
QUOTE (Steve G @ Jun 24 2019, 07:06 AM) *
Was this expected or is this a bad thing?

It was planned, albeit 1 day later than planned. They also planned further lifts to carefully raise the housing off the probe. The mole appears to be tilted, roughly from east to west with what maybe a void around the probe. It also looks to a be little further in the ground than they expected. There is a few days before the next lift details
MahFL
QUOTE (PaulH51 @ Jun 24 2019, 01:08 AM) *
It was planned, albeit 1 day later than planned. They also planned further lifts to carefully raise the housing off the probe. The mole appears to be tilted, roughly from east to west with what maybe a void around the probe. It also looks to a be little further in the ground than they expected. There is a few days before the next lift details


The mole must have unluckily hit a rock right as it was going down. sad.gif.
monty python
This is what I expected would happen. The mole was trying to get around an obstruction, but couldn't because it was still partly in the delivery tube and couldn't tilt. Bad luck.
.
fredk
Well, the good news is that the mole appears to be at roughly the depth and tilt that was predicted (see this news release). But as others have pointed out, it looks like there's an open cavity around the mole, as this pic shows best:
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/su...0000_0827M_.PNG
As they've stressed, that means the mole doesn't get the friction it needs to burrow, so just bounces. The question now is: can they pack the soil tightly around the mole with the scoop to restore the friction?
atomoid
Here's a quick GIF (4fps) of the action sol203-204 from the ICC
Click to view attachment
MahFL
Hopefully they can pack the soil down with the scoop and re-start hammering.
PaulH51
Looks like a perfect lift to 25cm (as planned), if the plan remains unchanged...
QUOTE
on 28 June the structure should be completely lifted and moved about 10 centimetres towards the lander.

Click to view attachment
ICC image from sol 206 (post-lift)
Phil Stooke
Insight images now available from the PDS:

https://pds-imaging.jpl.nasa.gov/data/nsyt/insight_cameras/

A quick look can be had in the browse directory. Sol 14 data include panorama files. I have not yet found later updates to the panorama.

Phil
PaulH51
The DLR HP3 blog from Tilman Spohn has been updated (June 28, 2019) recording recent observations following the progressive lifts on the HP3 housing. Part three of the lift where the housing will be placed closer to the lander is now scheduled for Saturday, followed by grapple release / stowing.

QUOTE
It is a bit premature to firmly talk about the next steps after part three... ...But the discussion so far centers around filling the pit and then proceeding with the pushes on the regolith that I have described in my previous post.


Full DLR blog
atomoid
Latest NASA article from July1 has GIFs from both cameras
PaulH51
Sol 223: The grapple has released the HP3 housing, next planned step is to stow the grapple to permit a closer inspection of the pit around the mole. Operation #savethemole continues smile.gif
Click to view attachment
fredk
Stereo views of the mole and cavity. Cross-eyed:
Click to view attachment
Anaglyph:
Click to view attachment
stevesliva
Does look mechanically amazing. The deployed instruments don't sink, but some more pressure, and you compress quite a few voids. Lander pads may have done the same, as noted back in December in this thread.
MahFL
Grapple stowed already :

PaulH51
QUOTE (MahFL @ Jul 19 2019, 09:01 AM) *
Grapple stowed already :

We can get some close-up images of that odd looking pit now 🤔
PaulH51
According to this release by CNES, the operation to recover the mole will be targeted for completion before solar conjunction. The release is in French and the English option takes you to a different page. So I used Google translate on the French release, I have garnered (very roughly) the following regarding future operations:-

CNES detailed their participation of the future operations for recovery of the mole. This includes:-

Returning to programming every 3 days, from weekly programming for the duration of the recovery attempt.

Reducing bandwidth of SEIS to facilitate transmission of diagnostic images from the cameras.

Reducing the power consumption of certain subsystems because it is becoming colder on Mars and the available energy decreases with the dust accumulating on the solar panels.

Re-configuring SEIS into 'listening mode' to monitor the mole during drilling.

Plan:-

The scoop located at the end of the robotic arm will be pushed on the ground close to the mole, to collapse the pit and increase the friction to allow penetration to resume.

Because of the increasingly cold temperatures on Mars and the increasingly limited energy makes it more difficult to use the robotic arm (as it has to remain heated) Therefore the operational teams must perform these steps before the solar conjunction that will see the Sun between Earth and Mars preventing any communication with the InSight lander.
PaulH51
Crops from 4 Sol 230 IDC frames were resized (zoomed / sharpened) these show the pit illuminated by the sun close to local noon. The arm was moved between each frame so imaging experts should be able to create 3D models of the pit and estimate depth etc. More sol 230 images were coming down as I assembled this composite.
Click to view attachment
ddeerrff
QUOTE (PaulH51 @ Jul 21 2019, 04:46 PM) *
Crops from 4 Sol 230 IDC frames were resized (zoomed / sharpened) these show the pit illuminated by the sun close to local noon. The arm was moved between each frame so imaging experts should be able to create 3D models of the pit and estimate depth etc. More sol 230 images were coming down as I assembled this composite.
Click to view attachment


Sure would appear there is material missing from the hole. Where did it all go? Is the soil so compressible that it is all still there - perhaps pounded into a hard plug at the bottom?
atomoid
i'm assuming it has to be soil compaction, but its hard to say whether it collapsed thousands of intergranular voids or something much larger, hopefully this is only a surface phenomenon and wont renter the equation again, but i bet they are wrestling with many what-ifs involved in that question as to considering the way forward, er 'downward' that is!
Below, i hope you forgive my mangling of PaulH51's fine exhibit as repurposed for quick stereo crosseye/anaglyph
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
rhr
Thanks for pointing out that press release. Here's my translation (not well proofread for lack of time):

InSight: operation to rescue the HP3 probe ongoing on Mars

The attempt to redeploy the HP3 instrument has begun on Mars, with the support
of the seismometer SEIS. A description of the situation and the operations
follows.

After its landing on Mars last 26 November, InSight put two instruments on the
surface of Mars: the french seismometer SEIS and the german temperature probe
HP3. Although the deployment and operation of SEIS has gone well, thet's not
yet the case for HP3.

Its objective is to make the mole penetrate 5m under the surface while pulling
behind it a ribbon covered with temperature sensors in order to measure for the
first time the heat flow to the Martian surface. The drilling or hammering
operations have only got the mole 30cm deep. Several hypotheses have been
considered for the blockage of the mole. The proper functioning of the
hammering mechanism has been confirmed thanks to the ability of SEIS to listen
to its impacts. A rock or hard layer underground could be blocking the mole's
progress. But it could also be due to a lack of friction around the mole,
which needs to be able to press against its surroundings (sand, regolith, etc.)
in order for its hammering to move it forward.

The mole was not able to get out of its housing, which prevented the cameras
from visualising the mole's environment. JPL and DLR, who are responsible for
HP3, hae decided on a 3-step process. First, raising the housing to get a look
at the mole and verify that it's not mechanically stuck in this structure.

Next, to raise the housing further in order to completely free the mole and be
able to see all around it. However it is difficult to see the mole because the
camera is located on the same robotic arm that holds the housing, which does
not afford it a good view. So the last step is to set down the housing nearby
once the previous steps have succeeded. Then the DLR team can once again
command the mole to hammer. In case a rock is blocking its progress, being
removed from its sheath will allow it to pivot around it and continue its
progress.

The preparation of this rescue plan for HP3 has been a period of intense study
for the JPL and DLR teams this past month. JPL has an engineering model of HP3
which allowed them to test the operation in the test stand which also has a
model of InSight. These tests are described here:
https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8445/insights-te...e/?site=insight

The first step, of slightly raising the structure, took place on 23 June and
the result can be seen in the following image, which gives a clear view of the
mole.

The second step of raising the structure further happened on 26 June, visible in the following image.

In it you can see the mole in a much larger hole than expected, which seems to
validate the hypothesis that a lack of friction impeded its progress. But that
doesn't mean there still isn't a rock blocking its path.

Finally, the last step of putting the housing back down on the ground happened
the last week of June and it also went off without a hitch.

The SEIS operational team at SISMOC in Toulouse participated in two ways.
First of all they made sure the actvities wouldn't negatively impact SEIS, and
gave the SEIS team a "go" for the operation. The restriction for SEIS was that
the HP3 housing not be moved toward SEIS, and was therefore placed more toward
the lander. Additionally, at an operational level, they adapted the the
activities of SEIS to the rescue:
- narrowing the bandpass in order to free up downlink for the diagnostic
images
- reducing the power consumption of certain subsystems, since it's colder on
mars now and the energy available is decreasing as dust deposits on the
solar panels
- furnishing wind data from the weather station APSS relevant to the movement
of the structure
- in the future reconfiguring SEIS to listen to the mole's hammering when that
starts again

SEIS will therefore listen to HP3 and participate in the rescue of the german
instrument, as part of a combined DLR-JPL-CNES direction, remarkable as being
quite different from the original intent of the SEIS mission.

The operational rhythm has also been adpated, changing temporarily from weekly
commands to every 3 days for HP3 and the robotic arm.

The DLR team will now be able to command the mole to continue hammering, and in
the coming days we should see it disappear below the martian ground pulling
behind it the instrumented ribbon. The shovel at the end of the arm will be
used at the same time to press on the ground right around the mole in order to
fill in the hole a little and increase the friction and allow the penetration
to succeed.

All these operations are time-sensitive as the weather is getting colder every
dayand the solar power is dropping, making it harder to use the arm at the end
of a sol. So the operational teams wil have to acheive these steps before
solar conjunction in which the sun will pass between Mars and the earth and
will prevent communication with InSight. Conjunction starts 24 August and time
is counting down, and all operational efforts are now directed to the success
of the redeployment and penetration of HP3.
nprev
Thank you very much, rhr. Extremely informative!

Best wishes for success.
PaulH51
3-frame IDC processed GIF - Sol 234: Operation #Savethemole Continues:-
They have lowered the robotic arm and its scoop closer to the pit.
Looks like they are preparing to attempt to collapse the pit around the mole.
Click to view attachment
PaulH51
In this sol 237 IDC frame it looks like they have placed the scoop on the ground ready to begin applying pressure to collapse the pit and increase friction on the mole. Good luck to the team #savethemole
Click to view attachment
Phil Stooke
No, if you look at where the shadow of the scoop extends to its upper left, it must be above the surface.

Phil
Phil Stooke
Sol 240:

Click to view attachment

Now the scoop is touching the ground.

Phil
PaulH51
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Aug 1 2019, 06:24 AM) *
Sol 240:

Now the scoop is touching the ground.

After pressing the scoop on the ground, the scoop was stowed and the robotic arm raised away from the mole. Not sure why? A mission update would be welcome.
Sol 240 - 16:59:12.218 (LTST)
Click to view attachment
MahFL
New pics show the ground hardly moved, probably packed solid.
fredk
We don't know how much pressure was applied. It may have just been a preliminary test.
PaulH51
The scoop left a good impression in the regolith, but like you say we don't know how much pressure was applied.
Click to view attachment
Phil Stooke
They are, quite rightly, very cautious. All the pre-positioning and now this first touch may only be to ensure their spatial model is correct before trying the real process.

Phil
MahFL
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Aug 1 2019, 11:13 PM) *
They are, quite rightly, very cautious. All the pre-positioning and now this first touch may only be to ensure their spatial model is correct before trying the real process.

Phil


The update they did said they were pretty short on time and wanted to (forgive the pun) press ahead and try something before conjunction.
JRehling
Solar conjunction is September 2, which reminds me of how, in software engineering, you never want someone to push a release right before the weekend or vacation. I'm sure they will want to do something soon enough that they can see if it's working before the blackout. Given that it's been months without a solution, a mere couple of weeks seems like a very small amount of time.

FWIW, Mars will pass 1° north of the Sun at conjunction, so the blackout should be a bit shorter than if the two bodies happened to have the same declination.
djellison
FWIW - You typically need to stand down for 2 weeks centered on conjunction.
Phil Stooke
Sol 243, a second scoop touchdown in the same area.

Phil

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