helvick
Sep 5 2006, 07:23 AM
QUOTE (djellison @ Sep 5 2006, 08:10 AM)
I think it might be at quite a slope and thus we're seing some near rim, a tiny bit of far rim, and then the annulus beyond and etched terrain beyond that.
I think you're corrrect and nods to Marswiggle for calling this first. The view from the promontories is going to be absolutely stunning if these early glimpses are anything to go by.
Pando
Sep 5 2006, 07:35 AM
Now that I'm looking at the anaglyph jamescanvin posted, I think you guys are right. We're really seeing the plains behind the far rim and not the rim itself at this point. The outcrops can't be as subtle as they seem from the images.
Also, here is a guess of the size of Victoria in the ground. Considering that Victoria measures about 90 degrees FOV at this point, I measured this as 45% of the width of mhoward's pan (200 degrees).
climber
Sep 5 2006, 07:36 AM
jamescanvin
Sep 5 2006, 07:50 AM
Morning Europe.
I'm glad you guys agree with what we're seeing.
Moving on - the next question is - What is that feature on the horizon if it's not the rim?
Here are some lines showing the direction it should be in (the bearings of the left and right limits of the feature)
Click to view attachmentI don't see anything on this image in the right direction - maybe it's smaller and closer than the big crater?
I'll re-ask the question I asked earlier - Anybody know if there a MOC image for the region south-east of Victoria? I've never worked out how to search for them.
James
Bill Harris
Sep 5 2006, 08:36 AM
QUOTE
Also, from what we can see of this small crater so far, there don't appear to be any features jumping out that would warrant too long of a stay
This crater clearly defines the thickness of the ejecta at this location, and what is that dark, blocky rock on the far rim (of epsilon)?
Ah, the enigmatic Victoria. The truth is out, Vicky is flat (chested). A couple of fried eggs, for sure.
--Bill
djellison
Sep 5 2006, 08:53 AM
Tosol will be untargetted remote sensing only - yesterday was Labour day in the US, and that drive was the last sol of what was probably a 3 or 4 sol plan over the weekend.
What they WILL do today is take the rest of the navcam 360 from this position (5 pointings centred on 324 degrees ) and quite a lot of atmospheric pancam observations.
I'm not sure if they'll make the decision to drive on from Epsi..whatever it's called from just the Navcam imagery - they may do some targetted remote sensing tomorrow and then drive on, or some targetted remote sensing follow by approach drives for in-situ work. I think we'll have a better idea tomorosol (930)
Doug
Tesheiner
Sep 5 2006, 09:04 AM
Now it's 02:00am PDT (JPL time) and 04:30am at Meridiani; it means that when the rover team at JPL wake up today to start planning the next activities, it will be too late to uplink commands for sol 930, so we are on "restricted sols" again.
akuo
Sep 5 2006, 09:16 AM
Damn those pancams are confusing. Victoria certainly doesn't give its secrets away easily! I didn't think we would get within 100-odd metres and still see basically nothing!
Anyway I think the "far side" plains explanation for the features near the horizon is not satisfactory. There are far too definite details visible. Details that just look like the normal etched terrain bits and pieces seen from fairly close distance. Maybe I can offer an alternative explanation for the light coloured region in the
streched image. This could be a slight slope
upwards before the actual crater drops down. Endurance had an upwards slope on its southern side.
The slope would be the light region visible in the
route map. The slope would be only 10-20m wide. The mounds visible in the pancam images are before that slope. And the feature just at the horizon is indeed some bit on the far side of Victoria.
Tesheiner
Sep 5 2006, 09:56 AM
QUOTE (akuo @ Sep 5 2006, 11:16 AM)
Damn those pancams are confusing. Victoria certainly doesn't give its secrets away easily! I didn't think we would get within 100-odd metres and still see basically nothing!
Remember that those images were taken with the IR filter (L2R2) which is good to see the outcrops but can't see too far through the dusty atmosphere. Imho, it will be hard to distinguish the far rim while L7R1 pancam fliters (blue) are not used.
djellison
Sep 5 2006, 10:14 AM
Here's my take... everything blue is beyond Victoria crater, everything red is bits of Victoria we can see.
Doug
jvandriel
Sep 5 2006, 10:44 AM
The view in the drive direction on Sol 929.
Taken with the L2 pancam.
jvandriel
climber
Sep 5 2006, 10:52 AM
QUOTE (djellison @ Sep 5 2006, 12:14 PM)
Here's my take... everything blue is beyond Victoria crater, everything red is bits of Victoria we can see.
Doug
It's what I understand too
climber
Sep 5 2006, 10:57 AM
QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 5 2006, 09:50 AM)
Moving on - the next question is - What is that feature on the horizon if it's not the rim?
Here are some lines showing the direction it should be in (the bearings of the left and right limits of the feature)
I don't see anything on this image in the right direction - maybe it's smaller and closer than the big crater?
James
James,
I trust you on the bearing BUT, imagine you're wrong a few degrees North or South, the line could match either one of the two "conicals mounts" visible on the image. Even the conical-cuted shape match the navcams of today. Distance would be about 14-15 VC's diameters i.e. about 10 kms.
jvandriel
Sep 5 2006, 11:38 AM
Here is the navcam L0 panoramic view from Sol 929.
jvandriel
Phil Stooke
Sep 5 2006, 12:33 PM
I think James's directions are correct, and I was mistaken, after going over it again.
Phil
algorimancer
Sep 5 2006, 01:14 PM
QUOTE (dilo @ Sep 5 2006, 01:21 AM)
Click to view attachment[for some reason dilo's image attachment #7276 is not being displayed]
Just to put things into perspective a little more, between the targets you've labeled B & C is a little prominance which is at the correct azimuth to be the Twin Peaks. I only see a single peak, with a fine horizontal line near its base, so it looks to me like one of the Peaks is just poking above the far rim of Victoria.
Click to view attachment
jamescanvin
Sep 5 2006, 01:47 PM
QUOTE (climber @ Sep 5 2006, 08:57 PM)
James,
I trust you on the bearing BUT, imagine you're wrong a few degrees North or South, the line could match either one of the two "conicals mounts" visible on the image. Even the conical-cuted shape match the navcams of today. Distance would be about 14-15 VC's diameters i.e. about 10 kms.
When I first loaded up that image I was sure that one of those mounts was going to be what we're looking at. But they just seem too far off the right direction to be plausable. They look to be the right size and shape so maybe that is what we're looking at but I can't explain the error in the direction. Oh, and I'm kind of hoping that that feature will turn out to be only a km or so south of Vicky and hence be a realistic target post Victoria.
James
algorimancer
Sep 5 2006, 02:35 PM
I've been having a tough time identifying Zeta in these images. Zeta should occupy most of a navcam image from this position (about 40 degrees), and be something like 40-85 meters away, just off the left edge of Emma Dean / Epsilon (overlapping the left rim). It only shows-up reasonably well when viewed in stereo, and appears as a shallow depression in the expected direction and spanning the expected angle. I had to range on dunes in the interior to fix the distance, as the rim lacks distinctive features. I guess this rules-out the mound hypothesis
Eta is the dark splotch above and to the left of the rocky prominance on the far side of Emma Dean. Another splotch to the right of that prominance is an unnamed small crater which is just to the left of the letter E (from Epsilon) in the current route map.
RNeuhaus
Sep 5 2006, 02:43 PM
QUOTE (alan @ Sep 4 2006, 07:00 PM)
This is a long range view, captured by a PANCAM, the surface looks even more accidented with many parallel ripples but in the reality is that the ripples are small and the bottom is spacious between ripples.
The Epsilon crater, on the rightmost of the picture has a perfect circle. This has lead me to think that the surface was somewhat semi-liquid when a rocky stone fell on that. At the middle of the picture, seems to be another crater, Zeta which is between three and four time bigger than Epsilon. According to the MOC map, Epsilon has more marked as an outcrop rim than ones of Zeta which has none.
Then, the way is relatively easy to rover!
Rodolfo
djellison
Sep 5 2006, 02:48 PM
QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Sep 5 2006, 03:43 PM)
The Epsilon crater, on the rightmost of the picture has a perfect circle. This has lead me to think that the surface was somewhat semi-liquid when a rocky stone fell on that.
Why? Look at all the perfectly circular craters on the moon....no semi-liquid state there
Doug
mhoward
Sep 5 2006, 03:33 PM
I'm not sure anymore, but based on what Pando points out, namely that the angular width of Victoria seen from here is huge (50 degrees or more? edit: more like 80 degrees or more?), I still think the initial impression is correct and we are simply seeing inside the crater. It's tempting for me to think that the tracking data is off by about 5 degrees for some reason in this instance and the large feature on the horizon matches up with the craterlet on Victoria's edge - which, from the looks of things, might not be a craterlet at all. That's what I'm guessing... we will see what we will see
Tesheiner
Sep 5 2006, 03:51 PM
The problem is that IF we are seeing the far rim where is the SW part of the rim?
Actually it's not visible in the pancams, it's hidden behind the entry ramp features seen on the second (of four) pancam image. And if the SW rim is hidden it must be because it's lower then the entry ramp (W rim), so the last conclusion is that the far rim is lower (so hidden) then the near rim.
babakm
Sep 5 2006, 04:39 PM
QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 5 2006, 01:47 PM)
When I first loaded up that image I was sure that one of those mounts was going to be what we're looking at.
QUOTE
I trust you on the bearing BUT, imagine you're wrong a few degrees North or South, the line could match either one of the two "conicals mounts" visible on the image. Even the conical-cuted shape match the navcams of today.
I think your eyes are playing tricks on you. I see those not as conical mounts, but as highly eroded craters. The shadows on the left sides of the features matches the one on Victoria.
I'm guessing the feature on the horizon is from the far side of the big crater. I remember some old MGS mosaics of the area somewhere on the web...
marswiggle
Sep 5 2006, 05:01 PM
Yes, babakm, I am thinking similarly about the horizon feature. I checked the very large colored Meridiani image comprising Victoria (taken by Mars Express possibly?) and the direction is about right if this is one of the mountains on the _big crater_ far rim. It can also be seen in the elevation map that was sent here, in the now closed 'Moving south to Vic' thread. The far (far) rim should be something like 40 km distant (?), I don't know actually.
The link to the elevation map
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...417&st=1455
Pando
Sep 5 2006, 05:27 PM
Here is a half-sideways view of our approach (5x stretch), which I think explains nicely why we're seeing the plains and not the far-rim over the near-rim. Vicky is tilted, and we're climbing. The opposite rim is not yet visible since it's way lower than the far horizon.
babakm
Sep 5 2006, 06:03 PM
Further to marswiggle's post, here's a crop of the slinted MEX image from
this thread with a rough approximation of jamescanvin's vectors. There seem to be much better candidates on the far rim, although it seems incredibly far to be so clearly visible from here.
algorimancer
Sep 5 2006, 06:38 PM
Here's a breakdown of features visible in the current pancam panorama, including lot's of measured distances and azimuths (per APG):
Click to view attachmentNote that Zeta extends a few degrees past the right end of the panorama (the green line in the upper-right corner is an estimate of how much further).
The peak at 132 degrees lines-up very nicely with a feature in Tesheiner's current route map
Sub-Epsilon refers to the apparent partial crater to the left of (and partially overlain by) Emma Dean/Epsilon.
I also believe we're seeing the annulus and plains beyond Viccy. The far wall should be more distinctive than that, even at about 750 meters.
Nico
climber
Sep 5 2006, 07:35 PM
Did you notice that Oppy turned a little bit on her left (North) at the end of the drive ?
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all..._P1311L0M1.HTMLIt looks to me that it was more for alignement (to the boat ramp?) than anything else. I bet (and I hope) for a drive strait to VC instead of stoping at the "other" rather flat and sandy crater.
dot.dk
Sep 5 2006, 07:38 PM
QUOTE (climber @ Sep 5 2006, 09:35 PM)
Did you notice that Oppy turned a little bit on her left (North) at the end of the drive ?
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all..._P1311L0M1.HTMLIt looks to me that it was more for alignement (to the boat ramp?) than anything else. I bet (and I hope) for a drive strait to VC instead of stoping at the "other" rather flat and sandy crater.
Standard procedure to optimize UHF communication passes by preventing shadowing by the PMA
climber
Sep 5 2006, 07:44 PM
QUOTE (dot.dk @ Sep 5 2006, 09:38 PM)
Standard procedure to optimize UHF communication passes by preventing shadowing by the PMA
OK, but can't be true for all headings. (just try to find anything to get to VC ASAP
)
djellison
Sep 5 2006, 07:55 PM
A lot of drives end with a turn in place just to orient as best as possible for the UHF passes that follow.
Doug
Bill Harris
Sep 5 2006, 08:22 PM
QUOTE
Steve Squyres said there are a cluster of small craters between Oppy and The rim of Victoria they have named Emma Dean, Kitty Clyde's Sister, Maid of the Canyon, and Canonita...
These features are named after John Wesley Powell's Grand Canyon
exploration boats. A fitting naming scheme, no?
--Bill
Pando
Sep 5 2006, 09:38 PM
QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Sep 5 2006, 02:04 AM)
Now it's 02:00am PDT (JPL time) and 04:30am at Meridiani; it means that when the rover team at JPL wake up today to start planning the next activities, it will be too late to uplink commands for sol 930, so we are on "restricted sols" again.
Right, they'll sample some rocks with the IDD at where they are right now before driving to the rim. It's valuable to categorize the rocks at the current position since the impact that made the small crater has excavated some of the ejecta. That way they don't have to drive back as there aren't that many outcrops this distance from the rim.
Patience, Victoria ain't gonna go anywhere. I'd say we'll be there by the end of this week
dot.dk
Sep 5 2006, 09:45 PM
QUOTE (Pando @ Sep 5 2006, 11:38 PM)
Right, they'll sample some rocks with the IDD at where they are right now before driving to the rim.
Patience, Victoria ain't gonna go anywhere. I'd say we'll be there by the end of this week
Is that a fact or a guess?
jamescanvin
Sep 5 2006, 10:08 PM
QUOTE (marswiggle @ Sep 6 2006, 03:01 AM)
Yes, babakm, I am thinking similarly about the horizon feature. I checked the very large colored Meridiani image comprising Victoria (taken by Mars Express possibly?) and the direction is about right if this is one of the mountains on the _big crater_ far rim. It can also be seen in the elevation map that was sent here, in the now closed 'Moving south to Vic' thread. The far (far) rim should be something like 40 km distant (?), I don't know actually.
The link to the elevation map
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...417&st=1455QUOTE (babakm @ Sep 6 2006, 04:03 AM)
Further to marswiggle's post, here's a crop of the slinted MEX image from
this thread with a rough approximation of jamescanvin's vectors. There seem to be much better candidates on the far rim, although it seems incredibly far to be so clearly visible from here.
Holy smoke! I think your right.
Here are the heading vectors on that elevation map Tim posted:
Click to view attachmentA perfect match to one of the 'knots' of contours on the far rim.
Wow!
Pando
Sep 5 2006, 10:16 PM
QUOTE (dot.dk @ Sep 5 2006, 02:45 PM)
Is that a fact or a guess?
Yes.
Phil Stooke
Sep 5 2006, 10:19 PM
The direction looks good, but I have a problem with this idea. When Spirit saw the rim of Gusev, it was (as we would expect) very subdued in contrast compared with the foreground. Looking through a dusty atmosphere made the distant topography indistinct. But this hill has details on it every bit as contrasty as the surroundings. Anyway, only one small move should be enough for parallax to resolve the issue at once. Going out on a limb, I'll say I think it's close to the rim on the far side, like the mounds we are seeing up close here on the near rim.
Phil
dot.dk
Sep 5 2006, 10:21 PM
QUOTE (Pando @ Sep 6 2006, 12:16 AM)
Yes.
That was very rude!
jamescanvin
Sep 5 2006, 10:33 PM
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Sep 6 2006, 08:19 AM)
The direction looks good, but I have a problem with this idea. When Spirit saw the rim of Gusev, it was (as we would expect) very subdued in contrast compared with the foreground. Looking through a dusty atmosphere made the distant topography indistinct. But this hill has details on it every bit as contrasty as the surroundings. Anyway, only one small move should be enough for parallax to resolve the issue at once. Going out on a limb, I'll say I think it's close to the rim on the far side, like the mounds we are seeing up close here on the near rim.
Yeah I'm having a hard time beleving it really is *that* far away. I'm really looking forward to a bit of parallax.
However I don't beleve it can be a mound close to the far rim as I'm pretty sure we're seeing a good expanse of annulus/plain beyond Victoria but in front of the feature.
James
Edit: Maybe it's time for a 'far rim' vs 'really far rim' pool.
diane
Sep 5 2006, 10:44 PM
QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 5 2006, 06:08 PM)
Here are the heading vectors on that elevation map Tim posted:
I see some numbers on the contour lines in the elevation map: -1400, -1500. What unit of measurement applies to these numbers?
Bill Harris
Sep 5 2006, 10:48 PM
QUOTE
It's valuable to categorize the rocks at the current position since the impact that made the small crater has excavated some of the ejecta.
I'll agree with Pando. This is a unique opportunity to examine and characterize Victoria's ejecta material. Once we get at Victoria there is going to be slumping, erosion and deposition that is secondary and occured long after the impact. Think of it as a "Qal" unit, which won't tell much about the Pliocene...
Emma Dean is a fine roadcut.
I'll also agree with Phil; the distant feature is too clear and contrasty to be of that distant crater, it has to be a far-rim Victoria feature. We'll know for sure after the next driving Sol.
--Bill
jamescanvin
Sep 5 2006, 11:06 PM
QUOTE (diane @ Sep 6 2006, 08:44 AM)
I see some numbers on the contour lines in the elevation map: -1400, -1500. What unit of measurement applies to these numbers?
Meters - (Oppys landing site (ellipse centre) was at -1440m)
RNeuhaus
Sep 5 2006, 11:10 PM
QUOTE (diane @ Sep 5 2006, 05:44 PM)
I see some numbers on the contour lines in the elevation map: -1400, -1500. What unit of measurement applies to these numbers?
Diane
That is related to the Mars altitud reference that is 3,522.2 km of its equatorial radius: 3,397 km. Then the contour maps -1,400 meters (1.4 km) below of the reference, that is at 3,520.8 km from center of Mars.
Rodolfo
prometheus
Sep 5 2006, 11:21 PM
The large bump does appear to be on the far rim
Click to view attachmentIf that white patch in the middle are dunes in the bottom, Victoria is not very deep.
Click to view attachment
jamescanvin
Sep 5 2006, 11:43 PM
QUOTE (prometheus @ Sep 6 2006, 09:21 AM)
If that white patch in the middle are dunes in the bottom, Victoria is not very deep.
Click to view attachmentWell I beleve that the white patch on the left side of that image (*just* over the near rim) is the far rim (or possibly Sofi crater) everything else is further away.
We can't see inside Victoria yet, let alone the centre dunes!
James
diane
Sep 5 2006, 11:45 PM
QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 5 2006, 07:06 PM)
Meters - (Oppys landing site (ellipse centre) was at -1440m)
Thanks, James and Rodolfo.
So if I'm reading the map right, within about 200 meters of the far rim, there's about a 100 meter drop in elevation? As compared to maybe a 20 or 30 meter drop from Oppy's current position to Vicky's near rim?
That's why I was questioning the units. The terrain doesn't
look that steep, but the numbers suggest that each contour line is a change in elevation of 25 meters. Unless I'm misreading it, somehow.
dot.dk
Sep 5 2006, 11:49 PM
SOL 931 is a driving sol and a check of the RAT bits
CODE
931 p0685.03 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_5x1_az_144_3_bpp
931 p1149.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 frhaz_RAT_bit_check_subframe_loco_pri_56
931 p1149.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 frhaz_RAT_bit_check_subframe_loco_pri_56
931 p1149.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 frhaz_RAT_bit_check_subframe_loco_pri_56
931 p1151.04 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_hazcam_idd_unstow_doc
931 p1154.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_hazcam_idd_unstow_doc
931 p1205.08 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_penultimate_0.5_bpp_pri17
931 p1214.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
931 p1305.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_penultimate_0.5bpp_pri17
931 p1311.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_ultimate_1_bpp_crit15
931 p1976.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_5x1_az_324_1bpp_pri_23
931 p2631.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 pancam_sky_spot_L234567R34567
Total 0 0 0 0 0 0
But no drive direction panorama? Are they gonna do some work here or do they not predict to be able to do more forward driving once they are at the rim of Victoria?
jamescanvin
Sep 5 2006, 11:53 PM
QUOTE (diane @ Sep 6 2006, 09:45 AM)
Thanks, James and Rodolfo.
So if I'm reading the map right, within about 200 meters of the far rim, there's about a 100 meter drop in elevation? As compared to maybe a 20 or 30 meter drop from Oppy's current position to Vicky's near rim?
That's why I was questioning the units. The terrain doesn't look that steep, but the numbers suggest that each contour line is a change in elevation of 25 meters. Unless I'm misreading it, somehow.
I think you might be confused about the scale of that map - Victoria is that little circle next to the apex of my sight lines, the big crater is the *huge* one to the south east thats 10's of km across.
James
diane
Sep 6 2006, 12:00 AM
QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Sep 5 2006, 07:53 PM)
I think you might be confused about the scale of that map - Victoria is that little circle next to the apex of my sight lines, the big crater is the *huge* one to the south east thats 10's of km across.
Indeed! Thanks, James.
All this excitement over a big hole in the ground, and it turns out that it's not even so big...
Well, we're just going to have to take up a collection so we can send Oppy a maid service to dust off her panels, so she can make it to the next crater!
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