Full Version: Victoria here we come...
916 drive-direction:
vertical exaggeration 3x,
Nico
Nico
Here, this is a bit messed up, but is all I have time for:
Lots of small debris laying around. Is it from a recent impact or is it being left behind as the softer materials erode and blow away?
Hey, there seems to be a panorama party here! 
Regarding the pancam view, the terrain ahead looks flat as a pancake. I'm not sure if they will keep driving on the current heading or will head directly to the entry ramp...
Regarding the pancam view, the terrain ahead looks flat as a pancake. I'm not sure if they will keep driving on the current heading or will head directly to the entry ramp...
What an amazing couple of hours, watching all these pictures appear one by one... feels like I'm walking alongside Oppy asking "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" 
Seriously tho, I'm amazed and impressed, yet again, by the sheer speed with which you guys - and you all know who you are - manage to put these images together and post them here for everyone to enjoy. Your work rate is phenomenal, and much appreciated. Times like this I can't help but wonder 1) if the imaging and PR guys at JPL secretly lurk here, checking out your images and drooling over them like the rest of us do, and 2) if they look at the images and wonder if it's really worth making their own. I mean, absolutely no disrespect to the NASA guys, but sometimes I have a hard time believing that somedays they don't look at your images Nico, and your images Mike, and think "Ah, stuff it, let's just use that one..."
I'm really curious about this. Any of our "insiders" know if UMSF's images are drooled over within JPL's cubicles and corridors..? If not, they should be.
Seriously tho, I'm amazed and impressed, yet again, by the sheer speed with which you guys - and you all know who you are - manage to put these images together and post them here for everyone to enjoy. Your work rate is phenomenal, and much appreciated. Times like this I can't help but wonder 1) if the imaging and PR guys at JPL secretly lurk here, checking out your images and drooling over them like the rest of us do, and 2) if they look at the images and wonder if it's really worth making their own. I mean, absolutely no disrespect to the NASA guys, but sometimes I have a hard time believing that somedays they don't look at your images Nico, and your images Mike, and think "Ah, stuff it, let's just use that one..."
I'm really curious about this. Any of our "insiders" know if UMSF's images are drooled over within JPL's cubicles and corridors..? If not, they should be.
QUOTE (diane @ Aug 22 2006, 02:33 PM) 
From the MOC image, I'd expected Epsilon to be more of a degraded crater. Looks like we'll pass close by for a better look, soon enough.
Y'know, you're right. Epsilon is not much bigger than Waco or Beta, and those were so insignificant as to be nearly unnoticeable unless someone pointed them out to you. Maybe half the diameter of Beagle. Maybe it's because it's more recent, or perhaps because it punched through the ejecta and underlying evaporite so as to neatly highlight itself with light-toned evaporite. Meanwhile Zeta, whatever it is, is somewhat larger than Beagle and nearly indiscernable behind Epsilon unless you know to look for it.
I'm confused. In todays pancam images http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...TCP2365L2M1.JPG It appears that we're going perdendicular to the dunes. But, in the rear hazcam, it appears the same orientation relative to the dunes as it has been for the past few days.
Enjoy these views before the become obsolete 
CODE
917 p1154.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_hazcam_idd_unstow_doc
917 p1156.00 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_hazcam_idd_unstow_doc_pri27
917 p1205.08 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_penultimate_0.5_bpp_pri17
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917 p1291.00 0 0 0 0 0 0 ultimate_front_haz_1bpp_pri27
917 p1305.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_penultimate_0.5bpp_pri17
917 p1311.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_ultimate_1_bpp_crit15
917 p1391.00 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_ultimate_1bpp_crit27
917 p1985.04 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_5x1_az_144_3bpp_custom
917 Total 0 0 0 0 0 0
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917 p1205.08 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_penultimate_0.5_bpp_pri17
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917 p1275.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_hazcam_0.5bpp_pri_41
917 p1291.00 0 0 0 0 0 0 ultimate_front_haz_1bpp_pri27
917 p1305.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_penultimate_0.5bpp_pri17
917 p1311.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_ultimate_1_bpp_crit15
917 p1391.00 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_ultimate_1bpp_crit27
917 p1985.04 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_5x1_az_144_3bpp_custom
917 Total 0 0 0 0 0 0
QUOTE (Stu @ Aug 22 2006, 04:32 PM)
What an amazing couple of hours, watching all these pictures appear one by one... feels like I'm walking alongside Oppy asking "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"
Seriously tho, I'm amazed and impressed, yet again, by the sheer speed with which you guys - and you all know who you are - manage to put these images together and post them here for everyone to enjoy. Your work rate is phenomenal, and much appreciated. Times like this I can't help but wonder 1) if the imaging and PR guys at JPL secretly lurk here, checking out your images and drooling over them like the rest of us do, and 2) if they look at the images and wonder if it's really worth making their own. I mean, absolutely no disrespect to the NASA guys, but sometimes I have a hard time believing that somedays they don't look at your images Nico, and your images Mike, and think "Ah, stuff it, let's just use that one..."
I'm really curious about this. Any of our "insiders" know if UMSF's images are drooled over within JPL's cubicles and corridors..? If not, they should be.
Seriously tho, I'm amazed and impressed, yet again, by the sheer speed with which you guys - and you all know who you are - manage to put these images together and post them here for everyone to enjoy. Your work rate is phenomenal, and much appreciated. Times like this I can't help but wonder 1) if the imaging and PR guys at JPL secretly lurk here, checking out your images and drooling over them like the rest of us do, and 2) if they look at the images and wonder if it's really worth making their own. I mean, absolutely no disrespect to the NASA guys, but sometimes I have a hard time believing that somedays they don't look at your images Nico, and your images Mike, and think "Ah, stuff it, let's just use that one..."
I'm really curious about this. Any of our "insiders" know if UMSF's images are drooled over within JPL's cubicles and corridors..? If not, they should be.
If so, they probably do so with those large projection screen things seen in some press releases, where each downloaded image is shown at about a full meter wide, at least.
QUOTE (gregp1962 @ Aug 22 2006, 08:51 PM)
I'm confused. In todays pancam images http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...TCP2365L2M1.JPG It appears that we're going perdendicular to the dunes. But, in the rear hazcam, it appears the same orientation relative to the dunes as it has been for the past few days.
We're not really going perpendicular to the drifts. The latest drive was on a heading about 30 degrees east of south. The Pancam drive direction images from today are basically south-east.
Here's the view south-east:
Who knows what we'll see tomorrow...
MHoward,
I agree with what you are saying. But, why do most of the Pancam pics from today, like the one I posted before, look like we're going perpendicular?
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...TCP2365L2M1.JPG
I agree with what you are saying. But, why do most of the Pancam pics from today, like the one I posted before, look like we're going perpendicular?
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...TCP2365L2M1.JPG
They take four images centred on the expect drive direction for the next drive sol... the one you post is the 'eastern' most looking image, and the last - http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...TCP2365L2M1.JPG - is 45 degrees right of that, looking much more southward.
Between them, the 4 images centre on the nearest part of Victoria crater. Perhaps we're going to head a little more east with the next drive,
Doug
Between them, the 4 images centre on the nearest part of Victoria crater. Perhaps we're going to head a little more east with the next drive,
Doug
QUOTE (gregp1962 @ Aug 22 2006, 09:53 PM)
I agree with what you are saying. But, why do most of the Pancam pics from today, like the one I posted before, look like we're going perpendicular?
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...TCP2365L2M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...TCP2365L2M1.JPG
An illusion maybe? That particular pancam frame is looking only 30 degrees south of east, so it's not that far off east. And anyway the drifts are getting so small, it's probably more difficult to judge
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Aug 22 2006, 09:17 PM)
And another...
Looks like Opportunity's just on the edge of the border ripple zone and about to roll into the real flatlands.
Looks like I missed the party! (wrong time zone) Great work guys.
What an amazing view!
What an amazing view!
Just don't expect the first Victoria rim pan to look a lot like, for example, the Endurance rim pan. Endurance is a decent-sized crater, but Victoria is going to be a little more like walking up to the edge of a canyon than looking into a hole a few city blocks across.
It's going to be as impressive as hell, but in a far different way than anything we've yet seen, I think...
-the other Doug
It's going to be as impressive as hell, but in a far different way than anything we've yet seen, I think...
-the other Doug
It's really obvious to me, as I look at the close-up of the annulus in the MOC cPROTO image we've been using for mapping, here, that this surface retains a lot more craters than the etched terrain does.
By classic planetary photogeology, that would make the annulus an *older* unit than the etched terrain. From the differential in the crater count, I'd say a *lot* older.
What do y'all think?
-the other Doug
By classic planetary photogeology, that would make the annulus an *older* unit than the etched terrain. From the differential in the crater count, I'd say a *lot* older.
What do y'all think?
-the other Doug
If the etched terrain is mantled by slowly shifting dunes, and (as we see now) the annulus is much less so, the various processes that act to fill or remove small craters may operate more slowly on the annulus than elsewhere. Also, some of these pits may be caused by regolith drainage into cavities as suggested at Anatolia. See that latest polar view which I posted earlier today, very anatolia-like in places In either case the age issue is complicated by geomorphic processes other than lunar-style impact cratering.
Phil
Phil
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Aug 23 2006, 03:07 AM)
It's really obvious to me, as I look at the close-up of the annulus in the MOC cPROTO image we've been using for mapping, here, that this surface retains a lot more craters than the etched terrain does.
By classic planetary photogeology, that would make the annulus an *older* unit than the etched terrain. From the differential in the crater count, I'd say a *lot* older.
What do y'all think?
-the other Doug
By classic planetary photogeology, that would make the annulus an *older* unit than the etched terrain. From the differential in the crater count, I'd say a *lot* older.
What do y'all think?
-the other Doug
Oddly, from Opportunity images, I have yet to see a single microcrater on the annulus. I was expecting this surface to preserve these quite well (assuming that the microcraters result from secondary/tertiary impacts).
The lack of microcraters on the annulus may give us information of the age of the deposits, or the rate of aeolian infill. Perhaps the absence of microcraters can give hints on their mechanism of their formation, or the order or location of the secondary/tertiary impacts which (may have) formed them.
QUOTE (algorimancer @ Aug 22 2006, 03:48 PM)
... Meanwhile Zeta, whatever it is, is somewhat larger than Beagle and nearly indiscernable behind Epsilon unless you know to look for it.
I think it will be very interesting if we can discern what is filling that crater. Is it dark dust or is it the dark material we've seen below the more recent ripples? The last two drives have been heading pretty much on a bee-line toward the right rim of Epsilon, as far as I can tell. That would allow a passing glimpse of Epsilon on the left and a chance to inspect Zeta on the right as they advance toward the ramp. This is getting to be so much fun, in spite of the fact that we really can't see much of what we'd like, yet. Here's to 100 meters on tosol's drive. QUOTE (David @ Aug 22 2006, 06:23 PM)
Looks like Opportunity's just on the edge of the border ripple zone and about to roll into the real flatlands.
I noticed that, too.
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Aug 23 2006, 04:07 AM)
By classic planetary photogeology, that would make the annulus an *older* unit than the etched terrain. From the differential in the crater count, I'd say a *lot* older.
OK but what's the story with the ripples\dunes then? How come an "active" feature is absent on this older surface?
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Aug 23 2006, 04:07 AM)
It's really obvious to me, as I look at the close-up of the annulus in the MOC cPROTO image we've been using for mapping, here, that this surface retains a lot more craters than the etched terrain does.
I think they're harder to identify in the etched terrain, but personally, I'd say there are more craters within the etched terrain than the annulus.
Doug
QUOTE (silylene @ Aug 22 2006, 09:48 PM)
Oddly, from Opportunity images, I have yet to see a single microcrater on the annulus. I was expecting this surface to preserve these quite well (assuming that the microcraters result from secondary/tertiary impacts).
I saw this one, from August 20:
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...GTP0685L0M1.JPG
I think this is on the annulus itself? Interesting how it's getting flatter the closer to Victoria we get.
And this microcrater from 22 August.
There is an apparent anomaly. The ejecta apron does seem to have more craters visible from orbital images, but is clearly the younger surface. But as clearly, it seems that the etched terrain has more actively shifting sand drifts and the apron has a more stable surface. I'd suspect compositional differences.
These craters look somewhat muted, and it might be that the ejecta apron is a thin, wind-armored layer draped over older terrain and we are looking at an expression of the Meridiani Plain as it existed at the time of the Victoria impact. IMO, it is important to visit a road cut on the way to Victoria.
Otherwise, I'm expecting to see a Rabbit with a pocket watch come rushing past at any time...
--Bill
There is an apparent anomaly. The ejecta apron does seem to have more craters visible from orbital images, but is clearly the younger surface. But as clearly, it seems that the etched terrain has more actively shifting sand drifts and the apron has a more stable surface. I'd suspect compositional differences.
These craters look somewhat muted, and it might be that the ejecta apron is a thin, wind-armored layer draped over older terrain and we are looking at an expression of the Meridiani Plain as it existed at the time of the Victoria impact. IMO, it is important to visit a road cut on the way to Victoria.
Otherwise, I'm expecting to see a Rabbit with a pocket watch come rushing past at any time...
--Bill
QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Aug 23 2006, 03:40 AM)
...
These craters look somewhat muted, and it might be that the ejecta apron is a thin, wind-armored layer draped over older terrain and we are looking at an expression of the Meridiani Plain as it existed at the time of the Victoria impact
....
These craters look somewhat muted, and it might be that the ejecta apron is a thin, wind-armored layer draped over older terrain and we are looking at an expression of the Meridiani Plain as it existed at the time of the Victoria impact
....
This too has recently occured to me, potentially this is an explanation for Zeta's appearance, implying that Zeta preceded Victoria, while Epsilon is later.
QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Aug 23 2006, 04:40 AM)
Otherwise, I'm expecting to see a Rabbit with a pocket watch come rushing past at any time...
That Rabbit's name would be Opportunity.
I wonder where Oppy will find a Victorian waistcoat.
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Aug 22 2006, 07:07 PM)
By classic planetary photogeology, that would make the annulus an *older* unit than the etched terrain.
That rule of thumb can't be applied in a non-homogenous erosional and depositional environment like Meridiani.
Here is the L2 panoramic view on Sol 912.
jvandriel
jvandriel
Where are tosols images? Let's not hope it's another reboot 
Even a minor thing like this scares me so close to Victoria.
Even a minor thing like this scares me so close to Victoria.
The Odyssey bit rate is very poor today - so don't worry. It'll take a few hours for the stuff to get through the pipeline.
Doug
Doug
QUOTE (djellison @ Aug 23 2006, 07:50 PM)
The Odyssey bit rate is very poor today - so don't worry. It'll take a few hours for the stuff to get through the pipeline.
What's special for today other than the normal lower rate as Mars moves further away from us and nearer the sun?
It's low at the moment anyway - and it can depend what dish is availale. We're one 70m dish down as it is, so from time to time the bandwidth will have to be dropped even further....
Today is 235 - with a single 256k UHF pass of an estimated max 133 Mbits, it'll take a LOT of time to come down at 14k, let alone 4k! (100Mbit at 14k is 2 hrs )
Doug
Doug
CODE
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380 MRB_ODY_DOY229_ 1 06-229/07:54:25.0 06-229/08:11:31.0 bit_rate = 39816
381 MRB_ODY_DOY229_ 3 06-229/20:42:58.0 06-229/21:00:23.0 bit_rate = 14220
382 MRB_ODY_DOY230_ 2 06-230/09:35:29.0 06-230/09:51:54.0 bit_rate = 14220
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Today is 235 - with a single 256k UHF pass of an estimated max 133 Mbits, it'll take a LOT of time to come down at 14k, let alone 4k! (100Mbit at 14k is 2 hrs )
Doug
Doug
Thanks for the image(s) of the microcraters on the apron. I am glad to see them, as the microcratering event(s) should be significantly newer than the apron.
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Aug 22 2006, 10:35 PM)
If the etched terrain is mantled by slowly shifting dunes, and (as we see now) the annulus is much less so, the various processes that act to fill or remove small craters may operate more slowly on the annulus than elsewhere. Also, some of these pits may be caused by regolith drainage into cavities as suggested at Anatolia. See that latest polar view which I posted earlier today, very anatolia-like in places In either case the age issue is complicated by geomorphic processes other than lunar-style impact cratering.
Phil
Phil
Now, that's the kind of response I was looking for. I wanted people to start thinking in terms of depositional vs. erosional processes in the annulus material.
I wonder if, perhaps, the annulus surface is indeed older than the surrounding terrain, though. I can imagine a situation in which the surface into which Victoria impacted looked a lot like the surface we see around the original landing site, and that the shock effects that created the annulus (which is, after all, the ejecta blanket from Victoria) "cemented" the surface, making it more resistant to erosion than the materials that make up the etched terrain. Thus, the ejecta blanket is preserved much closer to the condition it was in when it was formed, while the surrounding terrain has undergone more significant aeolian erosion and deposition.
I was also making a small jibe at the prevalent thinking about crater counting and relative age determinations. I think too many planetary geologists go with crater counts as indications of relative age, without taking into account erosional processes and the ability of different types of material to retain craters...
-the other Doug
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Aug 23 2006, 05:07 AM)
By classic planetary photogeology, that would make the annulus an *older* unit than the etched terrain. From the differential in the crater count, I'd say a *lot* older.
What do y'all think?
-the other Doug
What do y'all think?
-the other Doug
Maybe they are secondary impacts? That would mean that the dunes were formed before Victoria, and that they stayed more or less unaffected by the blast.
Maybe the blast was mostly directed upwards? Or maybe it just requires much more energy to blow away a dune than I imagine...
Some data from sol 917 driving are already available at the PCTD web, including rover's new position.
The new movement tosol was 74m.
The new movement tosol was 74m.
How smooth can it get?
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportu...4MP1205L0M1.JPG
And VICTORIA!
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportu...5JP2366L2M1.JPG
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportu...4MP1205L0M1.JPG
And VICTORIA!
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportu...5JP2366L2M1.JPG
And on this another pancam we can clearly distinguish Epsilon's near and far rim.
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...5JP2366L2M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...5JP2366L2M1.JPG
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Aug 23 2006, 06:59 PM)
Now, that's the kind of response I was looking for. I wanted people to start thinking in terms of depositional vs. erosional processes in the annulus material.
I wonder if, perhaps, the annulus surface is indeed older than the surrounding terrain, though. I can imagine a situation in which the surface into which Victoria impacted looked a lot like the surface we see around the original landing site, and that the shock effects that created the annulus (which is, after all, the ejecta blanket from Victoria) "cemented" the surface, making it more resistant to erosion than the materials that make up the etched terrain. Thus, the ejecta blanket is preserved much closer to the condition it was in when it was formed, while the surrounding terrain has undergone more significant aeolian erosion and deposition.
I was also making a small jibe at the prevalent thinking about crater counting and relative age determinations. I think too many planetary geologists go with crater counts as indications of relative age, without taking into account erosional processes and the ability of different types of material to retain craters...
I wonder if, perhaps, the annulus surface is indeed older than the surrounding terrain, though. I can imagine a situation in which the surface into which Victoria impacted looked a lot like the surface we see around the original landing site, and that the shock effects that created the annulus (which is, after all, the ejecta blanket from Victoria) "cemented" the surface, making it more resistant to erosion than the materials that make up the etched terrain. Thus, the ejecta blanket is preserved much closer to the condition it was in when it was formed, while the surrounding terrain has undergone more significant aeolian erosion and deposition.
I was also making a small jibe at the prevalent thinking about crater counting and relative age determinations. I think too many planetary geologists go with crater counts as indications of relative age, without taking into account erosional processes and the ability of different types of material to retain craters...
Yeah, I'm just an observer when it comes to "What to expect when you're expecting large crater ejecta", but I have a series of assumptions related to this that I'm holding onto. One of which is that in the case of Victoria, the annulus surface contains a much higher fraction of coarser grained material. (I think that's a given now) The curious question that might support younger dunes would be answered by checking out the side of the annulus that's been exposed to the predominate wind direction to see how much the etched terrain dunes have perhaps "piled up" against that (windward?) side of the annulus. I mean, yeah, the annular debris must have initially rained down with a giant "FRA-WRUMP!!" and blown any dunes local to the annulus away, only to have them return, but they could reform differently on different sides of this ejecta blanket.
There'll still be debate on this, but the jury can't come back with just one slice of the evidence here. (as in one side of the annular/etched terrain "outcrop" like we have along the Beagle Highway)
Another assumption presumes that there's not enough fine dust/dune like material on the annulus to actually fill in those micro craters, so the appearance of more of them on the annulus wouldn't necessarily make the annulus older. So, yeah, I'm with you on any snickering at any "result" the bean counters of the micro crater variety might come up with...
Bit of a 'glyph.
Doug
Doug
I still find it extraordinary that, here we are, just a few hundred metres from the rim of this giant crater and it's still very indistiguished, even in the pancam views.
QUOTE (Sunspot @ Aug 23 2006, 10:45 PM)
I still find it extraordinary that, here we are, just a few hundred metres from the rim of this giant crater and it's still very indistiguished, even in the pancam views.
Yep - and at the same time a 30cm rock on the plain seems like a major feature. Truly Mars is a weird place.
does anyone know the reason for the comparatively poor quality of the navcam and pancam images
lately ?
Maybe it's simply a result of the filter choice (L2/R2) and the fact that the images are taken near noon directly against the sun ...
(sure hope, that the final pancam shots from the rim will be of the usual (better) quality again ...)
lately ?
Maybe it's simply a result of the filter choice (L2/R2) and the fact that the images are taken near noon directly against the sun ...
(sure hope, that the final pancam shots from the rim will be of the usual (better) quality again ...)
QUOTE (Nirgal @ Aug 24 2006, 12:04 AM)
does anyone know the reason for the comparatively poor quality of the navcam and pancam images
lately ?
Maybe it's simply a result of the filter choice (L2/R2) and the fact that the images are taken near noon directly against the sun ...
(sure hope, that the final pancam shots from the rim will be of the usual (better) quality again ...)
lately ?
Maybe it's simply a result of the filter choice (L2/R2) and the fact that the images are taken near noon directly against the sun ...
(sure hope, that the final pancam shots from the rim will be of the usual (better) quality again ...)
Maybe compression now that the data relay back home is getting weaker and weaker?
L2/R2 have always compressed badly when JPG'd...not sure why, that's the way it's always been.
We're also looking at a low contrast scene with Navcam - not the variety of rocks and soils that we have at Gusev, and so they're getting quite badly stretched when put on line.
Doug
We're also looking at a low contrast scene with Navcam - not the variety of rocks and soils that we have at Gusev, and so they're getting quite badly stretched when put on line.
Doug
I wasn't present since this last 3 days, and I'm amaze by the rover progression through Victoria Annulus. We recover the original terrain of the begining of the mission, that's a very good news.
So, with the last pictures, I've made as djellison an anaglyph centered on the Victoria features and the Epsilon Crater.
I think that the feature at the left-center of the picture is on Far Rim, by seeing the anaglyph.... Maybe I commit mistake...
So, with the last pictures, I've made as djellison an anaglyph centered on the Victoria features and the Epsilon Crater.
I think that the feature at the left-center of the picture is on Far Rim, by seeing the anaglyph.... Maybe I commit mistake...
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