I think the jagged nature of Victoria's rim is becoming visible, sol 907 L2/R2



Nico

I've always seen it this way: Oppy's remaining life-time is, unfortunately, limited. Therefore each Sol we spent less at Beagle etc. is one Sol more to spend at Victoria !

It's easy to forget Mini-TES....we don't know how much work was done on Beagle and what characterisation this was able to achieve. We also did have one IDD site on material adjacent to Beagle, so they may have been able to use that as a ground truth, infer those properties onto the remaining Beagle material using Mini-TES and then decide there was no benefit to staying around.

Doug

...and, if so , we can pop into the gift shop, buy a copy of "The Geology of Victoria Crater" by Marvin T. Martain, PhD and sit back smirking smugly since we'll know the answers.

I visited Barringer once in 1990 and it _is_ awe-inspiring. More so when you consider it happened within the timeframe of human habitation of the region.

Correct, Doug, we don't know the results of the miniTES measurements that have been done. It just doesn't get the "press" that images do.

--Bill

My thoughts exactly. Every day I looked at the new pictures of Beagle there was a voice at the back of my mind sighing "Yes, yes, all very interesting, precious rocks, precious rocks, but the clock is ticking here Oppy...look, over there, on the horizon, that's where you want to be..."

I don't know about anyone else, but I know that sometimes I've been guilty of kidding myself that our two little rover buddies are both invincible and immortal, but the truth is they are both running out of time. We don't know when The Day will be, for either rover, and hopefully it is a long way off yet... but in my heart I can feel they're both on borrowed time here, and am grateful for every new image that I click on. As for the future, well, I just can't see Oppy leaving Victoria for anywhere else, not just because there's nowhere else within driving range but because there'll be so much to see and do at Victoria that Oppy will end her days there in a rosy glow of scientific satisfaction...

So, now the long - possibly final - trek begins. Along the way I hope to see some more meteorites, maybe even fragments of the Victoria impactor (tho I reckon they're probably buried deep beneath all the dust and ejecta by now... booo....) and look forward to see the walls of Victoria looming up on the horizon, taller and more striking each day. I'm again reminded of the approach to Endurance, all those months ago, when we all "ooh"d and "aah"d as the far walls appeared before our eyes...

The only thing I'm worried about now - from my purely aesthetic, non-scientific point of view - is that Victoria is so big that we won't be able to take it all in properlywhen we get there. Single frames will only be able to image small portions of the far rim, with its outcrops and ledges etc, and it will take stitched panoramas to do it justice. But I'm sure the talents on this board are up to that challenge.

I have this gut feeling that as good as the landscapes we've seen so far have been, we ain't seen nothin yet...

True ... but I have the gut feeling that sight/vista-wise, Victoria could turn out to look not *quite* that
dramatic than expected ... This is because the orbiter images are kind of misleading wrt. to
the vertical scale which probably looks more dramatic on the MOC images than it is from the ground.

From the vertical profile data (MOLA) so far one can infer that Victoria as a whole is a rather "shallow"
bowl, so the impression of "steepness" and "hole-likeness" could be even less dramatic than at Endurance
with it's steeper depth-to-diameter ratio.

On the other hand I'm sure there will be many very dramatic single-frame, detail shots of the cliffs and
also, like Stu said, the stitched Panoramas showing a sense of dramatic "vastness" insted of "steeepness"
will be very, very interesting for sure

Hear what you're saying about the widescreen view... agree it won't be as dramatic as Endurance for sure... but looking at that recent "best yet" image image of VC what struck me was the intriguing detail around the edge; it looks (to my admittedly untrained eyes) like there are lots of quite tall rockpiles or boulders piled up around the rim, as we see around the edge of Baringer here and there...

...so I'm looking forward to Oppy approaching some of these blocks and boulders and seeing them in the foreground, with the "bowl" and far rim of VC behind them... should look stunning in 3D!

And I SO want to see a big shattercone up there at some point... !

What I often think about-

We will appreciate the size vs Endurance from far-rim details, It won't be that overwhelmingly noticeable in another way I feel. Especially not by looking at a 360 @ screenwidth.

I'm ready

Nico

I'm really looking forward to seeing some of the albedo features visible on the inner slopes of VC in more detail...

If you look here you'll see very interesting details on the slope, including what looks a lot like a "gully" (dry dustfall? dust moistened and darkened by water somehow? a martian having a sneaky pee over the edge of the crater while no-one's looking?) and drapes of lighter material close to the upper edge too... I can't wait to see what you, Nirgal, and our other Image Mages make of these features.

I think the inside of VC will turn out to be a very interesting place, both scientifically and visually.

Very little when one considers the size of any MOLA sample footprint and the distance between them on the ground when compared to the size of Victoria crater

Now, MOC NA Stereo is a nother matter

Doug

I've been thinking this for some time. Partly because of the Hell of a View experience, partly because Victoria won't be a first. I think Endurance was awe-inspiring because it was the first time we had looked over, then gone into a sizeable crater. Victoria is bigger, but will it really be that different? Similarly with Spirit, the thrill of the climb up Husband Hill and subsequent view from the top was largely due to the newness of the experience. If we climb up McCool hill, I don't think I will have that same sense of wonder.

I hate to bring a "yeah, yeah, been there, done that... Next!" type of attitude but much of the excitement for me as a lay-person is seeing something new and different. Personally, I want Spirit to get over to the very rugged looking terrain of the Promised Land. That's the next big thing for me, although I too am anxiously awaiting the first views of Victoria's bowl. Who knows, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised?

Brian

mhoward said:

"That is really nice. Phil, did you know that PTGui has a menu option labelled "Create a PhiloSphere"?"

You're kidding... no, I guess not. Well, that is a trifle weird.

Phil

I agree with you Nirgal, but anyway...It will be an orgasmars!!!

After a couple minutes' research: Apparantly it's named for someone named "Philo" and it has nothing to do with polar projections... although it does look kind of cool in its own right!

I think that thing should be called a Philohedron.

Phil

I agree, although technically it should be called a Philorhombicuboctahedron. All I know is I want one on my desk. Summit pan, perhaps.

I'd go with a truncated icosahedron as the polyhedra of choice.

I suppose the way to do it would be to use POV ray to spherically map a 360 pan around a truncated icosohedron then print a net and make with the scissors and glue.

I am thinking that when Oppy reaches on the rim of Victoria, there will be a deception!

The Victoria crater wall is very far, around 750 meters on the other side that the PANCAM won't be able to zoom in and see anything good! except only on the below of rim and their right and left sides.

So it would be desirable to select carefully the part of rim where there is nothing sand but any strates of land/rock to visit.

Rodolfo

QuickTime VR of Sol 907 Navcam mosaic. (3.1MB; best to save it first, then view it using QuickTime Player.) I'm working on my technique for generating these still. This one is full Navcam resolution.

Looks complicated, although it would be ideal. I'll go with one that I have an actual chance of completing

Is this week going to be all driving? It seems that if the sand is compact, we could be looking at a sprint like we had after we left Endurance. If so, we could be there in a few weeks.

Tosol ( 909 ) is a 'driver' - and I think that the times are nicely synced up at the moment for a few consecutive drive sols perhaps.

Doug

Maybe Oppy can pick up a small sample of the impactor at the souvenir shop!

Speaking of the Meteorite Crater in Arizona, here's a recent picture of it (~3 weeks ago). It's quite a sight to be at the rim.

It'll be an astounding view when we get to Victoria.

Here is another.

Well, we better hope that Victoria has a much less dramatic rim view than that somewhere, or it's going to be quite a short stay. Oppy won't be doing any scratch and sniff on the outcrops 40 m down if she has to roll down slopes like that.

Brian

I think we may have stopped to do some IDD work again.

Another crater, Wolfe Creek in Western Australia, has almost exactly Victoria's size. It is 880 m across, 40-60 m deep and filled with sand. I visited it in 2003. It is an absolutely breathtaking sight when you stand on the rim and watch the sunrise. It is wonderful when the first rays of the sun illuminate the rim and then the sunlit area slowly crawls down to the bottom of the crater. I hope Oppy will take some photos showing that effect (if possible).

Michael

Coordinates for Google Earth: 19 d 10' 19.50"S, 127 d 47' 42.33"E

Sure looks that way. We appear to have driven roughly northwest (yes, northwest) onto a drift to check it out.

Here are the Navcam images that came down:




And here is the Pancam drive-direction mosaic, which is pretty much due south:

Perhaps to test the surface cohesion of the dunes to see if they will allow FULL SPEED AHEAD to Victoria? Dare we dream of seeing the drives like the good ol' long distance Endurance runs? Or did Purgatory end all marathon drives....

I am so glad that I got teh internets working at our new apartment just in time to see this! (oh and to look for a job also...)

Thanks Michael for posting the above picture. The photography camera which you took that crater is equivalent to NAVCAM or PANCAM capability of Oppy. I have doubt about that Oppy's camera will be able to take as good picture as you have posted. Someone might jump it to express his opinion.

Rodolfo

The Wolfe Creek picture above looks like a 180-degree panorama to me...

It looks similar to the Endurance crater panoramas that were done at the rim.

Here is a view part way inside the crater I obtained in the days when it was possible to hike into it.
I painted a series of views of the formation sequence which were supposed to be on permanent exhibit in their museum. Unfortunately they have since removed them, but they still sell a set of postcards of the art. Perhaps if enough letters were sent to them they would consider bringing the paintings back... :-)

WOW ! what a view

I saw those paintings when I visited the crater back in the late 80's, Don. I was very, very impressed with them. (Of course, I've always been impressed with your work -- you're the Chesley Bonestell of our age.)

I'm sad to hear they've pulled them out of the display. Those paintings did an excellent job of bringing the reality outside the windows back to the event that brought that reality to life. I don't understand why the people running the museum would even think about removing them.

-the other Doug

The Boston Museum of Science removed a huge mural of the lunar surface painted
by Bonestell when Apollo 11 landed on the Moon, in an attempt to seem up to date
with the times. The removers actually cracked the painting in half! I do not know
whatever became of it.

On another note, could Opportunity survive a fall or tumble into Victoria? Enough to
at least keep operating and returning some science if not still moving?

DDAVIS, your image appear really cool, so is worth to post/link larger version... and this is true also for the Wolfe Creek crater posted by MichaelT.
PS: I argue from your msg that now it is not allo0wed to enter meteor crater...

Sigh.... does this mean they are planning to head off into the choppy seas again? I thought we had perhaps seen the last of those, apart from a few ripples near the Beagle Highway.

Brian

Hahaha, I don't think Oppy would survive a fall to Eagle/Beagle actually if it landed with the solar panels and antennas down

Speaking of craters, check out Sedan crater in Nevada, as this is what a fresh meteorite impact crater would probably look like.

Sedan crater is 1280 feet in diameter (390 meters), about half the size of Victoria. It's man-made with a nuclear explosion in July 6, 1962.

Operation Storax

Paste these coordinates to Google Earth: 37 10 37.53N, 116 02 46.39W

Greetings Areologists,

I've been lurking here for a long time now. Last week I happened to drive by Brent Crater in Ontario and got a quick digital camera mpeg of it I thought some of you might enjoy given the recent postings about terrestrial craters. Warning, the video file size (1.75 megs) and the images linked below are a bit large for some bandwidths.

Brent was formed by an explosion equivalent to 250 megatons of TNT 450 million years ago, and is approximately 4 kilometers wide.

You can read more about Brent here: http://www.valleyexplore.com/walk/ottawa/brent.htm

google map
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&am....162939,0.22316

The video was taken from the observation tower shown in the valleyexplore link. I also braved the black flies of the nature trail down to the floor of the crater and saw some composite rock the brochure said formed at the base of the cliff when the ancient crater cliff wall eroded. The crater floor included some strange alien looking plants. The impact excavated to a limestone layer giving the water on the crater floor an unusual chemical profile, and I suppose that might explain the plants.

As you may imagine, the whole experience made me think of Victoria.

Thanks to everyone for making our Mars adventure so much more interesting and enjoyable!

Konch

The shape of a nuclear explosion crater is highly dependent on the yield and depth of detonation. Sedan was nuclear test conducted specifically to look at cratering effects. The bomb was fairly deep. The resulting shape is deeper and more conical than most meteor impact craters. The craters that looked the most like Sedan are the fresh craters on Phoebe. IIRC, meteor impact crater shape depends on relative density and impact velocity of the colliding bodies.

<Off-Topic>

The worrying part in the article linked by Pando
Operation Storax
is the information about the explosion yield of this bomb that was "only" 100 Kilotons ...

... I'd rather not imagine what the "effects" of one of those 10 Megaton hydrogen bombs would look like

(this reminds one of how fortunate we all are that the cold war with it's ever present threat of
global nuclear destruction is over)

N.

</Off-Topic>

Hi all,

Just finished by month-long holidays and I'm now trying to "catch the train" (is that correct in english?).
Too many things happened during these last 30 days but, fortunately to me , Oppy has not yet arrived at VC; I really don't want to miss this event.

Now I think I'll need the rest of the week to sync' myself and have a look to all those images and mosaics at/around Beagle...

OT: I remember having a similar luck last year with Spirit and the climb to Husband Hill. Just came from vacations eager to see the pics from the summit but the rover was still climbing.

Welcome back, Tesheiner. You'll have a few days and Sols to "get back into the swing of things". Oppy made it to Beagle, spent some time doing science there and is now in the transition zone between the ripples and the eject apron and will likely spend some time looking around. Bob Shaw is still among the lost with non-connectivity problems.

--Bill

"...The crater floor included some strange alien looking plants...."

I've got "plant-freaks" in the family, though I'm not really one. But those look like some kind of pitcher-plant. They're carnivorous, trapping insects that crawl into the pitcher and can't crawl out. The boggy areas they grow in (like most or all carnivorous plants) are very nitrogen-poor, so they want PROTEIN to get the nitrogen from the amino acids.

FEED ME, SEYMOUR!

Beacon Rock Is Where??? LOL

Ok

We need a Song for Oppy's trek to Victoria and her arrival There?

I will have to think about one but would like to here from all the experts here on what song would represent Victoria and the Oppy's arrival and journey to there?

Maybe Judas Priest (Heading Out To The Highway)
or something much better?

"...The boggy areas they grow in (like most or all carnivorous plants) are very nitrogen-poor, so they want PROTEIN to get the nitrogen from the amino acids."

Well that's what I figured too, and even stuck my finger in one of the pichers to see if it would react. It didn't bite, or try to close its top, and the cup shape seemed to be for water retention as much as anything else, yet they were growing in a very wet place. I was mystified as to how limestone could produce nitrogen-poor soil, since a basic regime tends to be better at retaining nitrogen and calcium is a basis of basic soil. Can limestone also produce acid soil? If this is unusual does the bowl shape of the crater have anything to do with it, e.g. by preventing normal runoff? I didn't visit any non-crater bogs in Algonquin Park for comparison, though the website does point out the existence of other unusual species there such as the bulbet bladder fern, known to be associated with limestone.

Anyhow, apologies -- I know this is off topic except in as much as it might be interesting to consider similar cascades of consequences in Victoria -- unless of course we find some carnivorous plants down there!

konch

Hey Konch, thanks for posting that. I've got a few weeks vacation coming up and I was wondering where I could go for a few days. I've actually never visited Algonquin Park and so this would make a great little trip. How long a drive from Toronto is it?

Cheers,
Aldo.

By the way, the outcrop in your photo is impact breccia. You can see the large fragments that were trapped in the impact melt nicely in the bottom left of the photo.