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JRehling
QUOTE (EDG @ Jul 15 2015, 01:08 PM) *
I wonder if there's any consensus on that dark polar area on Charon - it looks almost like the dark area is it's a huge, deep irregular topographic depression to me (though granted there's not much help from the illumination angle). Is anyone else seeing that? Could that be real or illusion?


The dark polar area on Charon (informally, they said, "Mordor") reminds me of Mare Crisium on the Moon. The latter is clearly an impact basin, but it deviates considerably from a circle or even an ellipse. It's clear that with Mare Crisium, we see the upper portions of an original rim, with enough of the inner portion inundated by lava that the border is very jagged.

It's clear that the borders of Mordor are relatively sharp in places and seem to be respecting some factor other than just insolation, although it remains to be seen if the dark surface is due only to topography or to some interaction between both topography and insolation.
nprev
Just got home, just got online, just started the conference DVR playback, just saw the images posted here.

Nothing else to say. Nothing else really needs to be said. Gonna ride this feeling for a bit smile.gif
MarkG
Actually, the ice mountains remind me of parts of the surface of Io, tilted up and raised blocks rising above smooth surfaces. What pushed them up and smoothly filled the spaces between?

And a long fault running perpendicular to the ropey trend of the mountains!?

The dark pole of Charon does seem to be a thin veneer, with significant other tectonics going on underneath it. Is the darker right side of the Charon pole higher or lower than the left?

Nobody really expected the Pluto system to be this dynamic. Multiple types of terrain with different compositions and activity.

I am confident in predicting even more wild surprises as more data comes in.
TritonAntares
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jul 15 2015, 08:40 PM) *
Contrast stretch of Charon to make subtle features show up better.

Phil
Click to view attachment

Could the origin of the dark region be the result of an impactor made of some kind of dark material (chondrite) scattering its debris around in a polygonal area?
There seems to be some complex crater structure faintly visible inside near the left border of the darkish regio.
Habukaz
My interpretation of a north polar depression on Charon:

Click to view attachment
TritonAntares
QUOTE (devicerandom @ Jul 15 2015, 09:25 PM) *
Hi, long time lurker here. Sorry to break my silence but I had a question: Isn't anyone reminded of Titania when seeing Charon?

Titania from Voyager:

Yes. My first thoughts... Titania, Ariel and concerning Charons enourmous canyon at the right limb about Miranda with its chevron type areas.
xflare
OK... a bit unscientific, BUT.....There is a dark spot just visible in the shaded region - a tiny impact crater with ejecta? A vent? just a dark spot wink.gif --- or maybe something else.
EDG
QUOTE (Habukaz @ Jul 15 2015, 12:38 PM) *
My interpretation of a north polar depression on Charon:

Click to view attachment


Yeah, that's what I'm seeing too. Maybe some of the brighter parts on the left side inside the dark area are wall collapse features?
stevelu
QUOTE (Habukaz @ Jul 15 2015, 12:20 PM) *
My first reaction when I saw the close-up image of Pluto was "this is the surface of a comet or an asteroid". My bet is that at least some depressions in that image, like the big central one, are sublimation pits.

This is so much fun! We're all homing in on different aspects of the images because there is JUST SO MUCH. Science team seems giddy and in a state of delighted confusion. (Quite appropriately)

The more I look at the image the more I have the impulse to agree with you, Habukaz.

For example, in the northwest part of the image, *what* is going on with the centers/tops of some of those isolated mountains? (Pretty sure there are enough shadow clues to say many of the ones I mean are mountains not depressions.) It reminds me a bit of boxwork formations inside caves. Are they melting/eroding away from the top somehow? Venting? Just born that way (and if so, how on...Pluto)?

Blind men; elephant. Looks like we're gonna be here awhile.... rolleyes.gif

wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif
Req
New Horizon Mission News Conference - July 15:
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/inde...;catid=1:latest
Fran Ontanaya
Charon looks like a whole polar cap sublimated away. If it was a crater I imagine such deformation wouldn't have left the interior so flat.
EDG
QUOTE (TritonAntares @ Jul 15 2015, 12:38 PM) *
Yes. My first thoughts... Titania, Ariel and concerning Charons enourmous canyon at the right limb about Miranda with its chevron type areas.


I was thinking more of Oberon at first (before I saw the chasms), but yeah - definitely a Uranian satellite vibe (I think John Spencer mentioned that too in the briefing too).
Habukaz
QUOTE (xflare @ Jul 15 2015, 10:41 PM) *
OK... a bit unscientific, BUT.....There is a dark spot just visible in the shaded region - a tiny impact crater with ejecta? A vent? just a dark spot wink.gif --- or maybe something else.


Could also be a compression artefact, I suppose.
FOV
QUOTE (Explorer1 @ Jul 15 2015, 04:04 PM) *
That dark streak going diagonally to the lower right shadowed corner from the mountains; is that real or an artifact? Reminds me of the dark seams in some of the Mars panoramas, but this isn't stitched.
Edit: it's more visible in Fredk's mosaic, going vertically down the inset.



It looks like a naturally occurring groove or furrow of some sort to me.
ZLD
A weak attempt at getting the false colorization onto the latest closeup.

Click to view attachment

Disclosure: this is nothing remotely close to accurate - lots of fudgework here.

I did notice something quite interesting near the top left though. Looks like dunes.

----------
Edit
----------
Prefer a rotated version actually.

(click to enlarge)
Aldebaran
Just woke up. (damn I missed the press conference.) Total information overload. Some incredible images/

QUOTE (Marvin @ Jul 15 2015, 09:06 PM) *
So I've heard three possible sources of heat driving the geology (or a combination of them):

1. Radioisotopes
2. Liquid water still releasing heat from the original formation
3. Impact Event with Charon


4. Insolation

- and I'd be guessing, but volume changes associated with phase transitions in water ice. Possibly Ice XI to Ice IX (at depth of course)
kap
QUOTE (ZLD @ Jul 15 2015, 01:50 PM) *
A weak attempt at getting the false colorization onto the latest closeup.

Click to view attachment

Disclosure: this is nothing remotely close to accurate - lots of fudgework here.

I did notice something quite interesting near the top left though. Looks like dunes.


Even if this isn't remotely close to accurate it really helps bring out a bunch of features. I spent the first glances at the B&W image marveling over the mountains and the strange terrain at the bottom right towards the limb, however your colorization really brings out the "flat" areas.

-kap
Habukaz
QUOTE (EDG @ Jul 15 2015, 10:42 PM) *
Yeah, that's what I'm seeing too. Maybe some of the brighter parts on the left side inside the dark area are wall collapse features?


I'd guess impact craters or something else centred within the apparent depression. There are two apparent focal points there, if we are looking at the same stuff. But yeah, there's more bright stuff going on outside of that area, apparently.

Click to view attachment
Mongo
Just a reminder that the afternoon downlink from NH would have completed by now. From Emily's blog post on encounter activities:

Wednesday, July 15 at 19:25 UT / 15:25 ET / 12:25 PT: 6.9hr downlink: First Look B

LORRI Nix at 3.0 km/pix (~9x19 pixels across disk). Taken 2015-07-13 23:19:16. Range 590,000 km. - The best photo of Nix that will be available during encounter period; LORRI's best will be 10 times higher-resolution

3 frames on Pluto from high-resolution LORRI mosaic at 0.4 km/pix (Pluto will fill all 3 frames, each frame ~410 km wide). Taken 2015-07-14 10:10:15. Range 77,000 km. - The highest-resolution images of Pluto that will be available during encounter period

Alice, LEISA, REX, and SWAP data


This is assuming that the priority images have not changed -- this morning's Pluto image was supposed to have been another single-frame image like the one received on Tuesday, for a stereo view of Pluto.
kyokugaisha
Think Doug mentioned it in his twitter but the area near the terminator reminded me of some Cassini images of the venting region on Enceladus.

Click to view attachment
Michael Capobianco
It looks like the new Pluto image includes very little or none of the dark terrain (Cthulhu).

Click to view attachment
stevelu
QUOTE (fredk @ Jul 15 2015, 12:04 PM) *
Yikes! blink.gif

Here's an extremely crude attempt to locate the hires frame on the full disc frame:
Click to view attachment

It looks like the dark smudge that xflare and I are interested in really leaps out in the more sunlit, full-Pluto image from yesterday, even as the sun angle washes out the shadowed ripples.

(If you're not seeing the correspondence, note how the smudge seems to align with what I'm thinking of as the 'rockpile' in fredk's orientation. Though looking at my post's preview I don't see it quoting fredk's image properly, so you may have to follow the link to his original post.)

On one level, that's obvious. It's not a shadow, so it doesn't depend on sun angle. But it may be a clue about what to look for elsewhere, if you're inclined to hunt for more potential vents—er, odd smudges.
xflare
QUOTE (kyokugaisha @ Jul 15 2015, 10:11 PM) *
Think Doug mentioned it in his twitter but the area near the terminator reminded me of some Cassini images of the venting region on Enceladus.


Yes, it has similarly striated ridges

Nafnlaus
QUOTE (kyokugaisha @ Jul 15 2015, 09:11 PM) *
Think Doug mentioned it in his twitter but the area near the terminator reminded me of some Cassini images of the venting region on Enceladus.

Click to view attachment


Wow, don't get my hopes up, but you're right, it's hard to not see the similarities.

QUOTE (Saturns Moon Titan)
There are small and large ripples visible in the tombaugh regio region of the highest resolution image. JPEG compression artifacts or dunes/hills?


They're a large field of JPEG Dunes. They're located right next to some hills that seem to be inscribed with the complete text of the Wikipedia article on pareidolia. wink.gif
Habukaz
QUOTE (lyford @ Jul 15 2015, 09:53 PM) *
"The whale" is now informally "Cthulu Regio" wink.gif


We were presented this map yesterday:

Click to view attachment
machi
Little collage about what I see in the newest picture from Pluto.
So many different kind of terrains in the one image!
Daniele_bianchino_Italy
QUOTE (Habukaz @ Jul 15 2015, 10:23 PM) *
We were presented this map yesterday:

Click to view attachment


Wow i love cthulhu regio name, or Cetus regio ;-)
Gladstoner
(Never mind.)
Bjorn Jonsson
I can't remember when was the last time I was as surprised (or even confused) as I am now after watching a press conference announcing new planetary spacecraft results.

My strongest 'reaction' to these results is this one: It is now clear that Pluto, Charon and Triton are all either currently active or have been active relatively recently. So now I wonder, are big Kuiper belt objects generally active? And I also wonder about possible implications for the satellites of Uranus - they might suddenly have gotten a whole lot more interesting today than they were yesterday.

QUOTE (Habukaz @ Jul 15 2015, 08:20 PM) *
My first reaction when I saw the close-up image of Pluto was "this is the surface of a comet or an asteroid". My bet is that at least some depressions in that image, like the big central one, are sublimation pits.

On Twitter someone mentioned resemblance to 67P.

QUOTE (devicerandom @ Jul 15 2015, 08:25 PM) *
Hi, long time lurker here. Sorry to break my silence but I had a question: Isn't anyone reminded of Titania when seeing Charon?

If I remember correctly I mentioned that Charon reminded me of Titania and Ariel when the chasm was first seen in the Charon images 1-3 days ago.
matlac
QUOTE (ZLD @ Jul 15 2015, 03:50 PM) *
A weak attempt at getting the false colorization onto the latest closeup.

Click to view attachment

Disclosure: this is nothing remotely close to accurate - lots of fudgework here.

I did notice something quite interesting near the top left though. Looks like dunes.

----------
Edit
----------
Prefer a rotated version actually.

(click to enlarge)


Mesmerizing! Another great day to be alive. NH team during the broadcast were like a bunch of kids in a candy store. Charon is a total surprise and on par with Pluto as a crowd pleaser. We only have seen a glimpse of those two celestial bodies and we can already list a page full of different geological features... I hope Charonshine won't let us down.

Since this photo was unveiled, I can't help myself to see the isolated mountains in the reddish "plains" as if they were "flooded" by the red material in some way (deposit, eolian sedimentation, name it). Your tentative colorization makes it even more visible. I agree with you about the the small ondulating features that looks like dunes. It will be really interesting when spectroscopy data, topography and other measures will be put together.

About Charon's pole: I can't help but see a circular feature under the irregular dark matter. Probably an illusion as I see what I want to see. Can't wait until next press conference for more information.

Matt
Marz
QUOTE (tfisher @ Jul 15 2015, 03:23 PM) *
How confident are we about the cratering rate in the region of Pluto's orbit? Could the apparent youth of the mountains be due to an overestimate of impactors out there?


I'm just speculating here, but perhaps the "mountains" are the tips of massive icebergs. I wonder if warm, buoyant chunks of "mantle ice" might break free and could slowly convect through less "crustal ice"? It is really confusing to think how young this surface might be; I wonder if cratering rates might need revision for the outer solar system?
belleraphon1
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jul 15 2015, 02:47 PM) *
A major seismic event happened across the entire globe of the Earth today.

"This event is what we would expect to see if millions of swear jars suddenly burst, all across the civilized world," a noted seismologist stated.

-the other Doug


Agreed. My AWE runneth over

Craig
nprev
Just finished the press conference. The biggest surprise by far seems to be that tidal heating is now quite obviously not the only possible means of internal heating for icy worlds.

There were hints of this from Enceladus, but I think that the general consensus was that it had to be tidal heating somehow. A paradigm falls.

Challenging assumptions to find the truth: That's the essence of science itself. smile.gif
hendric
This is the only thing that even resembles a crater I can find in the whole image. There are some other vaguely roundish areas, but I can't convince myself they aren't depressions created some other way. This one has the illumination on the correct side, and a butterfly-looking ejecta blanket typical of a low inclination impact.

Click to view attachment
ZLD
Honestly, not knowing what to expect a crater to look like on Pluto, that still looks more like an inactive vent, than an impact crater to me. Very interesting to see such crater free surface. There's only a few in the Solar System after all!

So, NH2 anybody?
fredk
QUOTE (stevelu @ Jul 15 2015, 10:16 PM) *
It looks like the dark smudge that xflare and I are interested in really leaps out in the more sunlit, full-Pluto image from yesterday, even as the sun angle washes out the shadowed ripples...

On one level, that's obvious. It's not a shadow, so it doesn't depend on sun angle. But it may be a clue about what to look for elsewhere, if you're inclined to hunt for more potential vents—er, odd smudges.

Yeah. Comparing with the full-disc shot you can identify other albedo-dark "smudges", circled in black here:
Click to view attachment
I've also circled in grey part of what appears in the full-disc shot as a mid-tone region.

The bits of the dark Cthulhu region we can see look tantalizing...
Gladstoner
Perhaps, on a small scale, craters have a hard time maintaining their form in the highly volatile ices. Some may yet show up on the mountains and 'carpet folds', which I heard may be water ice.
paraisosdelsistemasolar
I just wanted to say congratulations and thanks to the New Horizons team. I never thought that Pluto could be so young, with so little cratering with the implications it has.

Also, I have moved the New Horizons image database to an external server and modified the code for a better working. It can be reached through: http://www.ungeologoenapuros.es/newhorizonsdb/

Nafnlaus
The more I watch images of nitrogen freezing and thawing, the more I think it has to be responsible for the erosion. Seriously, check out this video starting about 1 minute in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7K-6zEhtYw

Now imagine that rather than a cupful of nitrogen undergoing these sorts of phase changes the amount is on the order of megatonnes per square kilometer.
Julius
QUOTE (Gladstoner @ Jul 15 2015, 10:05 PM) *
Perhaps, on a small scale, craters have a hard time maintaining their form in the highly volatile ices. Some may yet show up on the mountains and 'carpet folds', which I heard may be water ice.

That could be a good argument. However what needs to be considered here IMHO is that it's the first time we're seeing an icy planet NOT orbiting a giant planet as was mentioned in the briefing. I would think that it should influence the cratering rate, it being lower for pluto compared to say the Saturn moons where the giant planet serves as a gravity hole theoretically leading to higher rate of impacts.
0101Morpheus
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jul 15 2015, 02:40 PM) *
Contrast stretch of Charon to make subtle features show up better.

Phil

Click to view attachment


The similarities between Charon and Triton are striking. I am almost certain it was a separate body that was captured by Pluto now.
JohnVV
a few VERY quick 3d renderings ( i have to go to dinner in a few Minuets so...)


back later
Ken2
I think the high mountains are due to erosion of the surrounding material with the dark material acting as capstones (like the mesa's in the American southwest)

This mountain in particular seems compelling.

Click to view attachment

nprev
Spectacular, John.

That black smudge is smack dab on top of an elevated 'ropy' looking region, very different from the surrounding plains & peaks. That is very, very intriguing.
Sherbert
QUOTE (neo56 @ Jul 15 2015, 09:04 PM) *
My take on the amazing LORRI picture of Pluto:



Thomas thats brilliant. The change of view makes it so much easier to understand. When I zoomed in on the ropey like background, there are thousands of little sublimation pits that are arranged in twisted lines just like rope. These very high hills, remember the ice shards in the foreground are over a kilometre tall, look distinctly depositional. This is millennia of super volatile frost/snow deposition. We have seen these sublimation features, shapes, pits, sedimentary like layering all over 67P, an object dominated by the sublimation of volatiles. We also see in the area that is the very tip of the Tombaugh Region, a grey coating that looks to have "flowed" over and covered underlying terrain, flowing round the Ice Mountains giving the appearance they are emerging from the surface. There are holes in it around the edges through which the loopy ridges of the terrain underneath can be seen, like lava tubes have holes in their tops, as well as underlying forms being visible in the surface topology. Whatever that grey stuff is, Carbon Monoxide Ice I suggest, has flowed down from the bright Tombaugh Region. The sharp angular shards of the Ice Mountains seem totally alien and randomly scattered in this landscape. Are they shards of Charon's Water Ice crust that broke off and embedded themselves in the terrain when the graze between Pluto and Charon occurred as mentioned earlier? This image right at the tip of the original heart shape is just at the edge of the first point of impact of my proposed graze of Charon. It would explain a lot, without resorting to energy sources and tectonics that have, for good reasons, been thought unlikely.

DLD, those experimental images were spot on, I learned so much from them. So Charon does have an "Eyeball" planet nature, even if, as I suggested previously, on a much smaller scale than Pluto. The two mountain ranges either side of the equator and the depression around the equator. Phil's contrast image appears to show dark plumes all over the hemisphere associated with dark circular features that could be volcanos or geysers, their direction of travel being all pretty much from pole to equator as the movement of warm gas in the sunlit hemisphere moving to the colder unlit hemisphere would enable. DLD's July 9 image shows the surface made of large plates and many of those cracks/faults can be seen in the new Charon image, and most possible Cryovolcanic activity is seen along them. This could just be deposits left eons ago when Charon had more internal heat, but it seems the team think that activity is recent, if not current. Along the deep valley of the equator a large crack is marked by the dark spots of sublimation vents/pits. Whatever is under Charon's Water Ice crust looks to be very slowly venting to the surface and is contributing to the resurfacing of Charon. Charon's nano atmosphere might not be quite so tiny as I thought. The Alice results will be intriguing.

That plume on the Pluto image looks similar, but with such a tenuous atmosphere surely all the plumes would be thinner, like the ones from geysers on Triton. Maybe the atmosphere on Pluto is far more turbulent due to the huge elevation changes and latent heat released by freezing gases, but on Charon? With 3 to 4 Km deep canyons and chasms, as detailed by the team, thats going to stir up whatever atmosphere there is there too. That canyon at 2 O'Clock looks to have been formed by a shattered piece of crust that did not quite escape from Charon during the graze with Pluto. It is adjacent to the impact area.

It was mentioned earlier, that the dark patch is not where the North Pole should be on Charon. The patch is dark because of the impact not because its a polar icecap, it just happens to be in the North Polar region. The depression gouged out by the impact is so clearly visible on the magical images folks have posted here, the mountains forced up around the perimeter too. The conclusion has to be that Charon formed separately from Pluto and was trapped into orbit around Pluto after the grazing impact in the Tombaugh Region. Charon's composition suggests it formed nearer to the Sun and was perhaps caught by Pluto as it was ejected from there by the antics of Jupiter and Saturn that created the Kuiper belt.

I hope people don't mind me thinking out loud in this way, its purely to generate ideas and give different perspectives and I make no claims to being scientifically rigorous or even right, just awestruck at what these images could be telling us about this amazing place. I am just so grateful to those who take the time to process and produce these "enhanced" images. Most of all a great big THANK YOU to the NH team for their brilliant foresight and dedication.
Julius
Who would have thought that icy bodies smaller than our moon could be so alive. I find it strange how the terrestial rocky planets witt the exception of earth and venus look so old and dead. That's one for the geophysicists to sort out. Less viscous internal ocean/slush mantles perhaps?
JRehling
QUOTE (0101Morpheus @ Jul 15 2015, 03:11 PM) *
The similarities between Charon and Triton are striking. I am almost certain it was a separate body that was captured by Pluto now.


It's almost impossible for Pluto to capture a body spontaneously. You'd need three bodies to carry that out, and Pluto never comes within 11 AU of anything large. It almost has to be a collision between Pluto and another body that led to the Pluto-Charon system.
jasedm
Very very cool.

This encounter will I think be the benchmark for collaborative achievement in the scientific community for many years to come.

An incomplete list of the assets and talents that have made this possible:

Hundreds of millions of dollars
Hundreds of very talented, very dedicated and very enthusiastic people
Indefatigable lobbying
DSN stations on three continents
A space-borne telescope in Earth orbit, and some of the world's largest earth-bound telescopes
Incredibly patient and exhaustive number-crunching
Engineering and navigational tolerances that almost defy belief

It's hard to think of a scientific endeavour in the last 20 years that approaches NH in terms of multi-disciplinary collaborative effort - and we get to enjoy the results in almost real time from the comfort of our own armchairs!

Let's not forget also that we've already had a 'free' Jupiter flyby, and have a bonus KBO encounter to look forward to a few years down the line.

Huge congratulations to all those involved. It's a crying shame Clyde Tombaugh didn't live to see this.

It would be interesting to know in the fullness of time, where within the 'error ellipse' (due to the slight uncertainty as to its precise orbital parameters) Pluto fell during closest approach. The best images released so far are spot-on ( there was a possibility that some would 'miss' the planet altogether due to these uncertainties).

Looking forward to more in the coming weeks!













lars_J
QUOTE (Ken2 @ Jul 15 2015, 06:19 PM) *
I think the high mountains are due to erosion of the surrounding material with the dark material acting as capstones (like the mesa's in the American southwest)

This mountain in particular seems compelling.

Click to view attachment


Yes, but most of the mountain tops are NOT mesas. What you point out seems to be the exception. Most have sharp points or a thin ridge line.
0101Morpheus
QUOTE (JRehling @ Jul 15 2015, 05:26 PM) *
It's almost impossible for Pluto to capture a body spontaneously. You'd need three bodies to carry that out, and Pluto never comes within 11 AU of anything large. It almost has to be a collision between Pluto and another body that led to the Pluto-Charon system.


A Giant Impact and capture of an intact Charon would create the tidal forces and the resurfacing that we are seeing today.
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