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Unmanned Spaceflight.com > Mars & Missions > Perseverance- Mars 2020 Rover
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mcaplinger
QUOTE (fredk @ Mar 29 2021, 09:04 AM) *
I guess that means that thrust doesn't scale the same as conductive cooling with air density.

Can't speak to exactly how they're modeling it, but my own experience with R/C helicopters of similar scale suggests that rotor downwash is a pretty ineffective way of cooling the motors on Earth, and nothing about the Mars helicopter suggests anything different. Take a look at figure 6 in https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/bitstream/handle/2...L%2318-4405.pdf which shows the propulsion motors getting up to something like 85C worst-case. Of course, the range is extremely wide, suggesting that the thermal analysis is very conservative, as they usually are.
PaulH51
Another step closer smile.gif (sol 38)
Click to view attachment
Sean
Almost there...

Marvin
It's getting exciting!

Here's what Flights 1 - 3 might look like:

Click to view attachment

https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2020/pdf/2096.pdf
neo56
Animation of Ingenuity deployment from sols 35 to 38.

Click to view attachment
PaulH51
Looking good with all 4 legs deployed on sol 39 (processed & cropped)
Click to view attachment
rlorenz
QUOTE (fredk @ Mar 29 2021, 12:04 PM) *
That's interesting, and surprizing. Since the rotors must produce comparable downward thrust on Mars as on Earth (to within an order of magnitude, anyway, considering the lower gravity), via a much greater rotor velocity, I might've guessed that the cooling effect of that air would be comparable too. I guess that means that thrust doesn't scale the same as conductive cooling with air density.


Thrust goes as rho * V squared. So for a given thrust and disk area, Martian density 50x less means the downwash has to be 7x faster

Power goes as rho * V cubed. So to generate that thrust we have to put 7x more power through the motor

But the heat transport goes as something like rho * V, so we have 7x less heat removal for a given temperature difference.


Now of course the disk loading of Ingenuity is a factor of a few less than typical small terrestrial drones, to make these effects a bit more manageable (and keep the rotor tips subsonic, etc.) but you can see the scaling really points to overheating being an issue for sustained operation at low density
djellison
So what you're saying is...Dragonfly has it easy laugh.gif
Bill Harris
QUOTE (rlorenz @ Mar 30 2021, 09:59 PM) *
Thrust goes as rho * V squared. So for a given thrust and disk area, Martian density 50x less means the downwash has to be 7x faster

Power goes as rho * V cubed. So to generate that thrust we have to put 7x more power through the motor

But the heat transport goes as something like rho * V, so we have 7x less heat removal for a given temperature difference.


Now of course the disk loading of Ingenuity is a factor of a few less than typical small terrestrial drones, to make these effects a bit more manageable (and keep the rotor tips subsonic, etc.) but you can see the scaling really points to overheating being an issue for sustained operation at low density

One could assume that "technology will find a way", but this may have hit a wall in this case. R/C helicopters use brushless motors as standard, which have the windings on the stationary periphery of the motor and the rotating core of the motor containing a magnet array. The windings could be cooled via a circulating fluid or by coupling to a large heatsink, but the problem will be cooling that core magnet array. Typically that is force-air cooled, but that wi'll be impossibly difficult with the thin Mars atmosphere.

htspace
Wow!
Click to view attachment
MarkL
[quote name='neo56' date='Mar 30 2021, 08:45 PM' post='251285']
Animation of Ingenuity deployment from sols 35 to 38.



Thank you! I would imagine they have taken video of each phase of the deployment which would be show smooth rotation of the various components. Is this just wishful thinking? The cameras can shoot at 10 fps and it would makes sense to have such a video.
Mark
mcaplinger
QUOTE (MarkL @ Mar 31 2021, 08:55 AM) *
The cameras can shoot at 10 fps and it would makes sense to have such a video.

WATSON can only run at 1/4 the video rate of MCZ (like MAHLI on MSL.)

From "Curiosity’s Mars Hand Lens Imager (MAHLI) Investigation" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-012-9910-4 -- "For a 720p format video, the maximum rate is ∼1.9 frames per second."
djellison
QUOTE (MarkL @ Mar 31 2021, 08:55 AM) *
I would imagine they have taken video of each phase of the deployment which would be show smooth rotation of the various components.


There are pyrotechnic devices being fired during these steps. You don't want science cameras pointed at pyro devices when they're going off.


mcaplinger
QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 31 2021, 10:18 AM) *
There are pyrotechnic devices being fired during these steps.

Good point. I thought this was all non-pyrotechnic, but based on https://www.compositesworld.com/news/nasa-i...or-first-flight you're correct, there was a pyro involved.
stevesliva
Click to view attachment

One begins to expect Ingenuity to deploy something below itself as well...
djellison
QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 31 2021, 11:09 AM) *
pyro involved.


Looking at the CAD file posted to https://rps.nasa.gov/3D-viewer/ it looks like there's definitely some involved in the chopper - shield deploy for sure, and at least some others around the interface to the rover.

neo56
Animation updated with sol 39 mosaic:

Click to view attachment
fredk
QUOTE (stevesliva @ Mar 31 2021, 08:19 PM) *
One begins to expect Ingenuity to deploy something below itself as well...

Maybe it's turtles all the way down... laugh.gif
Marz
April 11th is the expected first flight attempt, with data on April 12th:

https://www.space.com/ingenuity-mars-helico...elayed-april-11
PaulH51
New Helicopter blog entry link (dated April 02, 2021)
Written by Bob Balaram, Chief Engineer for the Mars Helicopter Project at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory
QUOTE
Within a few days, Ingenuity will be on the surface of Mars. Until now it has been connected to the Perseverance rover, which allowed Ingenuity to charge its battery as well as use a thermostat-controlled heater powered by the rover. This heater keeps the interior at about 45 degrees F through the bitter cold of the Martian night, where temperatures can drop to as low as -130F. That comfortably protects key components such as the battery and some of the sensitive electronics from harm at very cold temperatures.
Before Ingenuity drops the last few inches onto its airfield, Perseverance will charge up the little helicopter's battery to a 100 percent state-of-charge. That's a good thing, because Ingenuity has to run its own heater from its own battery after the drop. No more free power from the rover!
But there is another free source of energy on Mars: the Sun! The Sun's energy is weaker at Mars-a little over half of what we would find here on Earth on a bright, sunny day. But it's enough for Ingenuity's high-tech solar panel to charge the battery. Of course, this means that the rover will drive away from Ingenuity after the drop so that we uncover the solar panel. This will occur as soon as possible after the drop.
Ingenuity can't afford to keep the temperature of its interior at a "balmy" 45F -that takes too much precious energy from the battery. Instead, when it wakes up on the surface after being dropped, it sets its thermostat to about 5F or lower. Then it's off to survive the first night on its own!
The Ingenuity team will be anxiously waiting to hear from the helicopter the next day. Did it make it through the night? Is the solar panel working as expected? The team will check the temperatures and the battery recharge performance over the next couple of days. If it all looks good, then it's onto the next steps: unlocking the rotor blades, and testing out all the motors and sensors.
Marvin
QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 31 2021, 02:42 PM) *
Looking at the CAD file posted to https://rps.nasa.gov/3D-viewer/ it looks like there's definitely some involved in the chopper - shield deploy for sure, and at least some others around the interface to the rover.


That's a great 3D viewer. I tried to find out more about this using public domain sources.

If you look at this image from Lockheed Martin Space, I think I see three pyrotechnic valves associated with the helicopter deployment:

Click to view attachment

From what I can ascertain from open sources they were used to:
1. Release the helicopter shield
2. Release a locking mechanism holding the helicopter to the rover
3. Release the arm to begin rotating the helicopter to the upright position

The final attachment of the helicopter to the rover seems to me to be a non-explosive spring loaded release mechanism activated by a current. That's the cylinder with a "Z" on it. This is the last electrical connection between the rover and helicopter.

These are my best guesses, most of the detailed engineering specs are behind paywalls.

Here is the original source to the Lockheed Martin image:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lockheedmarti...in/photostream/
Art Martin
Just saw this on Twitter:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyF2yf7WUAMSUdR...amp;name=medium
nprev
Upright & on the regolith. smile.gif
Explorer1
And lapping up the sun's rays too! Terrific accomplishment, those last few cm.....
Phil Stooke
The two Hazcam images projected to help locate the new position for the map.
Phil
Click to view attachment
MahFL
Whoot !

neo56
A bit of image processing on this first photo of Ingenuity on its own on the surface of Mars.

Marvin
Good drop! I read somewhere there was a contingency to try to use the robotic arm to right it, if it had toppled.

The helicopter was fully charged before the drop, but I think I'm already seeing the "sticky dust™" on the solar panel. I don't know if this will impact the helicopter mission in any way.

Click to view attachment
Sean
Survive The Night

Explorer1
QUOTE (Marvin @ Apr 4 2021, 06:44 AM) *
Good drop! I read somewhere there was a contingency to try to use the robotic arm to right it, if it had toppled.

Click to view attachment


It was a question during a press conference (specifically if the arm could be used if there was a problem during landing); the answer was if tipped over, it would be so damaged as to not fly anymore. In any case, the robot arm has no manipulator for that purpose.
John Moore
Assuming all goes well for the eventual lift-off, I wonder will the manoeuvre generate a dust cloud around it so as to obscure camera-recording of it by Percy?

Whatever occurs, it's still a great achievement...congrats to the team.

John
HSchirmer
QUOTE (John Moore @ Apr 4 2021, 02:47 PM) *
Assuming all goes well for the eventual lift-off, I wonder will the manoeuvre generate a dust cloud around it so as to obscure camera-recording of it by Percy?
Whatever occurs, it's still a great achievement...congrats to the team.
John
Agreed!
Does this mean we get Martian air density data that allows future rovers to include a "leaf blower" to blow the dust off, and a bunch of detailed belly spectrometers to identify what minerals they're driving over?
Art Martin
There's a number of images that I thought we'd see before the one of the rover fully backed away from Ingenuity. I would have thought they took images of steps such as the disconnect of the helicopter and its drop below the rover. Also possible images of the drive away from it. Perhaps they are still coming down and the importance was dropping it and moving quickly away to start the solar cells charging and ensuring it was all clear. I guess there was no possibility of video of the drop. Just once I'd like to see an object hitting the surface in the reduced gravity. I suppose we'll see that during the flights although it will be a power on landing.
Art Martin
QUOTE (John Moore @ Apr 4 2021, 07:47 AM) *
Assuming all goes well for the eventual lift-off, I wonder will the manoeuvre generate a dust cloud around it so as to obscure camera-recording of it by Percy?

Whatever occurs, it's still a great achievement...congrats to the team.

John


I believe before the first flight there are a couple of motor tests where the rotors will turn but be below take off speeds. Those may kick up some dust and remove it prior to the actual flight.
fredk
QUOTE (John Moore @ Apr 4 2021, 03:47 PM) *
Assuming all goes well for the eventual lift-off, I wonder will the manoeuvre generate a dust cloud around it so as to obscure camera-recording of it by Percy?

See this post for an answer to that.
phase4
here's an attempt to make an anaglyph of a L-R rear hazcam pair.
view with caution ninja.gif

Sean
Sol 44 Navcam Left
nprev
Yikes. Do I see dust on the arrays already...?
Art Martin
QUOTE (nprev @ Apr 4 2021, 07:52 PM) *
Yikes. Do I see dust on the arrays already...?

Not sure where dust would have come from to have got to the top of Ingenuity. The cover was still on during landing and early roving and the rover didn't go very far after removing it with the solar panel vertical during that time until unfolding and deployment. Sure a drop of a few inches didn't kick up a bunch of dust. I'm certain they drove the rover away slowly. We'd really need a zoomed in shot to confirm that is actually some dust coating and not just different coloration of the panels.
nprev
Agreed, of course. Definitely do not want to be right here.
Art Martin
An anaglyph of the Nav Cam shots.

Ingenuity on Surface Anaglyph
eliBonora
Hazcam panorama

djellison
4 NCAM subframes each at 2x2 downsampled. I suspect this is the res we will see most of the time for drive direction Navcam images.
fredk
QUOTE (nprev @ Apr 5 2021, 03:52 AM) *
Do I see dust on the arrays already...?

One possibility is that we're seeing some reflected skylight on the solar panels.

I couldn't find whether the navcam sensors include IR cutoff filters. There shouldn't be any real need to include them, since colour accuracy isn't too important for the navcams and sensitivity is a plus. If they don't have IR filters, another idea is that the panels may look quite different in the IR.

Also the Martian soil is fairly dark, so these exposures make the helicopter look unusually bright.
mcaplinger
QUOTE (fredk @ Apr 4 2021, 09:33 PM) *
I couldn't find whether the navcam sensors include IR cutoff filters. There shouldn't be any real need to include them...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9

QUOTE
Each [Navcam] lens assembly contains six individual lens elements and a fused silica UV and IR blocking filter mounted between the powered elements and the detector.

neo56
A mosaic of 2 Hazcam Left pictures taken on sol 43 and a Navcam Left picture taken on sol 44:



Marvin
QUOTE (Art Martin @ Apr 4 2021, 10:18 PM) *
Not sure where dust would have come from to have got to the top of Ingenuity.


When it was still attached, there was a gap between the solar panel and the bottom of the rover, so dust could have been deposited by the wind. But looking at the latest images, most of the panel seems clear. Probably more than enough to charge the battery.
Andreas Plesch
https://bit.ly/PercyMAP has been updated to show the latest drives, Ingenuity at its current position but exercising its rotors 4m up in the air, a closer default view, and with more links from recent way points. Also, the 3d scene code was simplified a bit.
ChrisC
QUOTE (Andreas Plesch @ Apr 5 2021, 11:15 AM) *
https://bit.ly/PercyMAP has been updated to show the latest drives, Ingenuity at its current position but exercising its rotors 4m up in the air, a closer default view, and with more links from recent way points. Also, the 3d scene code was simplified a bit.

Could you add a "help" button that displays a paragraph of text or something that provides a basic explanation of how to use this? It looks truly excellent, if only I could figure out to move around, or do whatever is possible with it.

EDIT: OK, I found this earlier post which is a great start:

QUOTE
It is made using https://www.x3dom.org/ and a little javascript. One can zoom in (wheel or right mouse drag), pan (middle mouse drag) and re-center (double left click). The coordinates of the cross-hair are reported and left clicking adds the current position to a list, and calculates the distance from the last recorded point. For example, it turns out that the wind-carved walrus boulder (harbour seal) is about 12m away from the rover.

I think a lot of people will have trouble with the middle-mouse drag. Most hardware interfaces are lacking that capability (laptop touchpads, trackballs, mice with scroll wheels, etc.). Is there a reason that you didn't use left-click drag?

Scroll-to-zoom sense seems backwards to me, but I'll be happy to be shouted down on that.

Is there a way to tilt the scene? Your mention of "3D" implies yes but ... OH MAN I just clicked "overlook"! Wow! Yes! Add that to the help text!
Art Martin
A new update showed up on the rover website that even includes the first image taken by Ingenuity of the ground below it as it was deployed.

https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8906/nasas-mars-...ght-on-its-own/

“This is the first time that Ingenuity has been on its own on the surface of Mars,” said MiMi Aung, Ingenuity project manager at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Southern California. “But we now have confirmation that we have the right insulation, the right heaters, and enough energy in its battery to survive the cold night, which is a big win for the team. We’re excited to continue to prepare Ingenuity for its first flight test.”
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