Because there's no such thing as a completely empty fuel tank, I imagine, esp. with hypergolic fuels. There are always remnants (vapor, liquid) that won't be fully vented, so it remains an explosive hazard.
Actually was within a kilometer of so of what turned out to be a couple of guys in Korea welding an empty fuel tank many years ago...the explosion was extremely loud.
Full Version: Perseverance Lands In Jezero Crater
here is a PHIL-O-VISION of the forward hazcam (contrast stretch)
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
interesting to note the varying colour of surface rocks from white to grey.
"PHIL-O-VISION"
Ouch - my precious eyes!!!
Nice view of the distant hills and mountain. The cameras on the mast will give views of these features that will blow us away.
Phil
Ouch - my precious eyes!!!
Nice view of the distant hills and mountain. The cameras on the mast will give views of these features that will blow us away.
Phil
QUOTE (nprev @ Feb 19 2021, 03:04 PM) 
Because there's no such thing as a completely empty fuel tank, I imagine, esp. with hypergolic fuels. There are always remnants (vapor, liquid) that won't be fully vented, so it remains an explosive hazard.
Actually was within a kilometer of so of what turned out to be a couple of guys in Korea welding an empty fuel tank many years ago...the explosion was extremely loud.
Actually was within a kilometer of so of what turned out to be a couple of guys in Korea welding an empty fuel tank many years ago...the explosion was extremely loud.
hmm, nonetheless, more fuel seems to track with increased risk, as the opposite of a partially empty tank hazard for aircraft which would seem to have to do with oxygen from the atmosphere occupying the vacated space, so the hypergolic issue would seem to worsen with more fuel, assuming its stored in separate tanks, so getting rid of as much as possible seems prudent unless you desire to have a larger explosion upon impact, which is good for getting a bigger crash plume so works in our favor in that sense. Not to dither too much on the safety question as im sure theres good reason for it, my misunderstanding on this subject has my curiosity piqued.
The adjacent olivine unit looks to be at a lower level than the spot where Percy landed. Does that mean its older terrain?
QUOTE (atomoid @ Feb 19 2021, 02:36 PM)
There must be good reason why an emptied fuel tank poses enough an explosion hazard they take measures to avoid, but seems counterintuitive, any explanation?
Yup - the 'eyes' caption is just flat out wrong - I've let them know.
As you run out of fuel you can get a mix of fuel and pressurizing gas coming through the pipelines together and bad things can happen.
tl;dr don't run a rocket dry. Bad things happen.
Shut the engines down after they've done all they need to and the problem goes away. Moreover - the longer you run those engines, the longer you need to maintain attitude to keep firing in a good direction - away from the rover. As the paper I cited earlier details - that's not trivial.
6 seconds is enough.
QUOTE (nprev @ Feb 20 2021, 12:04 AM)
Because there's no such thing as a completely empty fuel tank, I imagine, esp. with hypergolic fuels. There are always remnants (vapor, liquid) that won't be fully vented, so it remains an explosive hazard.
Actually was within a kilometer of so of what turned out to be a couple of guys in Korea welding an empty fuel tank many years ago...the explosion was extremely loud.
Actually was within a kilometer of so of what turned out to be a couple of guys in Korea welding an empty fuel tank many years ago...the explosion was extremely loud.
Yes its nasty stuff. Only takes a a few ML to blowout for example, everything in a car. Nasty stuff, you want it away from the rover and science site. It only takes a minor static charge to turn it into C4
I assumed the right front wheel image was one of the cameras on the mast looking sideways or something. So it's a full resolution subframe of the other front hazcam.
These cameras are something else than the b/w one megapixel cameras we've been used to since MER.
These cameras are something else than the b/w one megapixel cameras we've been used to since MER.
QUOTE (algorithm @ Feb 19 2021, 02:38 PM)
From watching the recent press conference, I recall one of the science team was asked about the porous nature of the rocks near the rover wheels.
Her answer IIRC was that if they are volcanic basaltic rocks, then the holes (wrong term) are caused by the venting of gasses during cooling, and that if the rocks are sedimentary, the the same holes are produced from the interaction with chemically enriched water.
Her answer IIRC was that if they are volcanic basaltic rocks, then the holes (wrong term) are caused by the venting of gasses during cooling, and that if the rocks are sedimentary, the the same holes are produced from the interaction with chemically enriched water.
Yup, that was Katie Morgan. If the rock is volcanic, the holes would be caused by expanding gasses and be called vesicles. Vesicular basalt has been observed on Earth, the Moon, and Mars. Alternatively, the holes, or vugs (more generically) could be caused by fluids dissolving and removing soluble material from a sedimentary rock. Oppy saw some of that.
The topic was discussed here: https://youtu.be/Xz-Id5ZNopM?t=2600
QUOTE (Julius @ Feb 19 2021, 06:25 PM)
The adjacent olivine unit looks to be at a lower level than the spot where Percy landed. Does that mean its older terrain?
The olivine unit could be simply more easily eroded. Consider Gale Crater, where much of the current topography is the result of differential erosion by wind. Soft stuff gets removed first, harder rock makes hills and ridges. However, it could also be that the olivine unit is stratigraphically lower and hence older. So stay tuned.
QUOTE (Eutectic @ Feb 20 2021, 01:19 AM)
The olivine unit could be simply more easily eroded. Consider Gale Crater, where much of the current topography is the result of differential erosion by wind. Soft stuff gets removed first, harder rock makes hills and ridges. However, it could also be that the olivine unit is stratigraphically lower and hence older. So stay tuned.
This slide set has a simplified anticipated geologic history of Jezero:
https://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/...assett_Nili.pdf
The olivine unit is expected to have been eroded and transported, mostly as crater floor sands.
While we wait for images, Ingenuity reported in yesterday; all is well with the batteries and the base station: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasas-mars-he...pter-reports-in
That rock with "holes" next to Perseverance's wheel reminds me of the rock Barnacle Bill from Pathfinder in 1997. Did it remind anyone else of it?
Something to go by till Monday...
The youtube 360 videos are still being processed:
Sol 0 front Hazcam image:
https://youtu.be/2AJqoiLhdkk
Sol 1 front Hazcam image:
https://youtu.be/D2e6opsz6ZI
The transition from sol 0 to sol 1:
https://youtu.be/xEzCCecAn0Q
Sources:
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/science/landing-site/
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/25610/hiris...escent-to-mars/
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/25609/high-...rances-landing/
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/25612/perse...r-look-at-mars/
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/25611/perse...nces-big-wheel/
The youtube 360 videos are still being processed:
Sol 0 front Hazcam image:
https://youtu.be/2AJqoiLhdkk
Sol 1 front Hazcam image:
https://youtu.be/D2e6opsz6ZI
The transition from sol 0 to sol 1:
https://youtu.be/xEzCCecAn0Q
Sources:
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/science/landing-site/
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/25610/hiris...escent-to-mars/
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/25609/high-...rances-landing/
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/25612/perse...r-look-at-mars/
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/25611/perse...nces-big-wheel/
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Feb 19 2021, 09:03 PM)
The bubbles in volcanic rocks are called vesicles. As scalbers pointed out, lots were seen at Viking 2's site. Also found on the Moon and of course right here. The crater floor may include volcanic rocks which are high priority samples for dating.
Phil
Phil
QUOTE ('pioneer')
That rock with "holes" next to Perseverance's wheel reminds me of the rock Barnacle Bill from Pathfinder in 1997. Did it remind anyone else of it?
Yep, Barnacle Bill looks very similar- apparently BB is 'andesite', which is interesting, because that rock is mostly associated with "wet" ocean rocks being subducted and re-melted (on Earth by plate subduction, on Mars, who knows?)
QUOTE (djellison @ Feb 19 2021, 02:30 PM)
It does not do this. See Mars Science Laboratory Flyaway Guidance, Navigation, and Control System Design. Behçet Açıkmeşe et.al.
The bridle umbilical device (BUD) has built-in retraction
springs to retract the now free bridles away from the rover top deck.
Once the flyaway controller on the DS assumes control, it first
holds the current altitude for 600 ms to allow sufficient time for the
umbilical to be cut. After the requisite hold time, the thrusters throttle
up and the DS ascends vertically for a predetermined amount of time.
Then, the DS begins to execute a turn to approximately 50 deg pitch.
The DS holds this attitude with the thrusters at 60% for 4 s. The hold,
ascent, and turn take place within 2 s, which corresponds to a total
flyaway time of 6 s
There is fuel and high pressure gas still onboard when this is finished. Flyaway consumes ~20-22kg of fuel. M2020 had ~90kg of fuel remaining so there were ~70kg of fuel left on the descent stage at burnout.
To burn to depletion would be to risk an explosive event at fuel exhaustion causing a debris field the rover would be well within.
https://static.uahirise.org/images/2012/det...028401_1755.jpg < The crime scene of the MSL descent stage impact. Note the explosive nature of the scar.
The descent stage doesn't have a proper flight computer. It doesn't have it's own communications. It doesn't have it's own power generation. It doesn't have its own instruments. It doesn't have landing gear. It doesn't have enough fuel to land anyway.
This is a big discussion we all had in this place 8+ years ago. The descent stage is not a missed opportunity for a lander.
The bridle umbilical device (BUD) has built-in retraction
springs to retract the now free bridles away from the rover top deck.
Once the flyaway controller on the DS assumes control, it first
holds the current altitude for 600 ms to allow sufficient time for the
umbilical to be cut. After the requisite hold time, the thrusters throttle
up and the DS ascends vertically for a predetermined amount of time.
Then, the DS begins to execute a turn to approximately 50 deg pitch.
The DS holds this attitude with the thrusters at 60% for 4 s. The hold,
ascent, and turn take place within 2 s, which corresponds to a total
flyaway time of 6 s
There is fuel and high pressure gas still onboard when this is finished. Flyaway consumes ~20-22kg of fuel. M2020 had ~90kg of fuel remaining so there were ~70kg of fuel left on the descent stage at burnout.
To burn to depletion would be to risk an explosive event at fuel exhaustion causing a debris field the rover would be well within.
https://static.uahirise.org/images/2012/det...028401_1755.jpg < The crime scene of the MSL descent stage impact. Note the explosive nature of the scar.
The descent stage doesn't have a proper flight computer. It doesn't have it's own communications. It doesn't have it's own power generation. It doesn't have its own instruments. It doesn't have landing gear. It doesn't have enough fuel to land anyway.
This is a big discussion we all had in this place 8+ years ago. The descent stage is not a missed opportunity for a lander.
I went looking to see if a feasibility study had ever been done about soft landing Sky Crane. Came up with nothing, though I did find a number of interesting articles for those wishing to read more about Sky Crane:
https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/bitstream/handle/2...L%2318-6030.pdf
https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/bitstream/handle/2...708/08-0255.pdf
https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/bitstream/handle/2...13-0606_A1b.pdf
https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/bitstream/handle/2...13-0737_A1b.pdf
No - see the vesicular basalts collected on the Moon, e.g. at the Apollo 15 site.
"Lunar Sample 15016, better known as the "Seatbelt Basalt", is a lunar sample discovered and collected on the Apollo 15 mission in 1971 in the Hadley-Apennine region of the Moon. The rock is a 0.923 kg (2.03 lb) vesicular olivine basalt."
"Lunar Sample 15016, better known as the "Seatbelt Basalt", is a lunar sample discovered and collected on the Apollo 15 mission in 1971 in the Hadley-Apennine region of the Moon. The rock is a 0.923 kg (2.03 lb) vesicular olivine basalt."
Madrid is currently "talking" to three Martian Orbiters (Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, Mars Odyssey, and MAVEN), which are part of the Mars Relay Network.
I would guess they're testing the rover hardware, downloading images, updating the rover's software etc.
What's even more amazing (if that's possible) is that Canberra is listening to Voyager 2 which is not even in our solar system anymore!
https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html
Click to view attachment
I would guess they're testing the rover hardware, downloading images, updating the rover's software etc.
What's even more amazing (if that's possible) is that Canberra is listening to Voyager 2 which is not even in our solar system anymore!
https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html
Click to view attachment
Awesome work MarT! That's really impressive for your 6th post! Keep going 
QUOTE (MarT @ Feb 20 2021, 05:11 PM)
Sol 1 front Hazcam image
Weren't all the hazcams so far released from sol 0?
QUOTE (fredk @ Feb 20 2021, 10:41 AM)
Weren't all the hazcams so far released from sol 0?
The color images are from Sol 1 I believe.
QUOTE (vjkane @ Feb 20 2021, 11:04 AM)
The color images are from Sol 1 I believe.
All the press release says is "this is the first high-resolution, color image to be sent back by the Hazard Cameras (Hazcams) on the underside of NASA's Perseverance Mars rover after its landing on Feb. 18, 2021" but I encourage you to look at the shadows from the first raw image (obviously taken on sol 0) and this image, the rover heading, the time of the press conference, and the LMST at landing and intuit which sol it was.
I thought these tall rocks in the near distance in JRehling's photo were interesting. They seem different from their neighbors and the usual flat white rocks we see most places on Mars. Brought here in outflow from the delta?
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
QUOTE (Blue Sky @ Feb 20 2021, 08:32 PM)
I thought these tall rocks in the near distance in JRehling's photo were interesting. They seem different from their neighbors and the usual flat white rocks we see most places on Mars. Brought here in outflow from the delta?
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
They look like mission ending rocks too...
It's hard to believe that these images are from "engineering" cameras... the quality of the Hazcam color image is nuts, and I think it's not even full resolution (all of the ECAMs use the same 5120 x 3840 sensor.) Really excited to see what people are doing with them. And the maps posted here too are excellent quality - just as one example, so much better than the contour maps I have recently hacked out as a QGIS newbie for Curiosity's region.
Given the number of enthusiastic new voices and new data sources, it seems a useful time to say something about image credit and copyright. I don't have any bones to pick, just want to make it easy as others did for me to "get it right" and make sure all sources have proper credit and nobody gets themselves or each other upset or in trouble. (Hard to believe, I know... but it has happened here before.)
[If better placed folks and/or site MODS want to clarify or expand on anything, or move this to a different spot, please do.]
Does anyone already have a list of the proper instrument credit lines we should be using for Mars 2020 where different from MSL?
Given the number of enthusiastic new voices and new data sources, it seems a useful time to say something about image credit and copyright. I don't have any bones to pick, just want to make it easy as others did for me to "get it right" and make sure all sources have proper credit and nobody gets themselves or each other upset or in trouble. (Hard to believe, I know... but it has happened here before.)
- Short version: CREDIT YOUR IMAGES. Preferably ON the image. Scientists spend literally their entire careers doing the work to generate these. They just might stop sharing them before publication if we abuse the privilege.
- Longer version: This is a link to a very clear explainer Emily Lakdawalla wrote on this topic, with handy examples for the vast majority of space image sources a on this a few years back (it was on planetary.org until recently, thus the link to archived version). Excerpt:QUOTEProper attribution is important to the space imaging community, both professionals and amateurs. For space images, credit is due not only to the image processor, but also to the organizations that produced the original data. Each data set from each instrument on each spacecraft might have a different proper attribution.
There is also an accompanying article by Andrew Rush on the Planetary.org site on copyrights. And this site's rules have the following to say:QUOTE5. Copyright
Images from NASA missions are in the public domain. The creation of mosaics, composites, anaglyphs, projections, and other treatments of NASA-based raw data constitute the creation of an original work. As such, the copyright for this derived imagery lies with the individual who created it. Copyright does not have to be explicitly stated to be enforceable.
The European Space Agency (ESA) has different policies regarding copyright and use of their mission images and data. Some data is in the public domain while other material is restricted in its uses. We recommend you familiarise yourself with these policies. [1 2] Users of data from other space agencies (eg: JAXA, INSA) should familiarize themselves with the agency's copyright policy before posting.
5.1 If you wish to use images from unmannedspaceflight.com, ask permission from its creator first, especially if you intend to use the images for profit. For legal advice on copyright, visit this site.
5.2 Give credit where it's due. Credit should be given to the institutions responsible for generating the data as well as to the person who processed it.
[If better placed folks and/or site MODS want to clarify or expand on anything, or move this to a different spot, please do.]
Does anyone already have a list of the proper instrument credit lines we should be using for Mars 2020 where different from MSL?
The rocks around the landing site, I would presume, arrived in one of two ways:
1) Carried downslope over 3 billion years ago in the river.
2) Flung long distances by spallation from impacts.
Where we see a huge boulder, (2) seems more likely than (1). Where we see two huge boulders near one another, that's even more true.
I don't think the Nile, Mississippi, Yangtze, etc. carry huge boulders downstream. A catastrophic flood caused by impact melt or volcanism could do that. But that's not the supposed story of Jezero.
The fairly consistent flat surface, even where rocks rise through the sediment/dust seems to me to indicate erosion, either chemical or aeolian. Where a couple of boulders stick up above that general plain would seem to indicate a different composition that resisted erosion.
1) Carried downslope over 3 billion years ago in the river.
2) Flung long distances by spallation from impacts.
Where we see a huge boulder, (2) seems more likely than (1). Where we see two huge boulders near one another, that's even more true.
I don't think the Nile, Mississippi, Yangtze, etc. carry huge boulders downstream. A catastrophic flood caused by impact melt or volcanism could do that. But that's not the supposed story of Jezero.
The fairly consistent flat surface, even where rocks rise through the sediment/dust seems to me to indicate erosion, either chemical or aeolian. Where a couple of boulders stick up above that general plain would seem to indicate a different composition that resisted erosion.
QUOTE
Scientists spend literally their entire careers doing the work to generate these. They just might stop sharing them before publication if we abuse the privilege.
Putting my lawyer hat on (how rarely I can do that on this forum!), can you clarify what you mean by this? The raws are public domain, and that can't be changed by the science team (at least as far as NASA is concerned; ESA images are another matter!).
Those links are an excellent explainer, by the way. I recommend everyone read them!
QUOTE (Greenish @ Feb 20 2021, 12:17 PM)
Does anyone already have a list of the proper instrument credit lines we should be using for Mars 2020 where different from MSL?
The below would be my preferences, but MSSS has no PIs on this mission so my opinion counts for even less than usual. MSSS is frequently omitted in such cases, e.g., explicit guidance for LROC is just NASA/GSFC/ASU.
Engineering cameras should be the same as MSL: NASA/JPL-Caltech
LCAM: NASA/JPL-Caltech/MSSS
SHERLOC: NASA/JPL-Caltech/MSSS/LANL
Mastcam-Z: NASA/JPL-Caltech/ASU/MSSS
I'm not sure about the others.
It is hard to tell how far away those rocks are - it might just be 5m. As far as I can make out in pictures, the cameras are only about 50cm above the ground. Those rocks do not extend above the horizon, so might be only 15cm tall. But they are definitely of a different composition then the general white stuff.
QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Feb 20 2021, 08:11 PM)
I encourage you to look at the shadows from the first raw image (obviously taken on sol 0) and this image, the rover heading, the time of the press conference, and the LMST at landing and intuit which sol it was.
The sun was lower in the west for the colour FHAZ, compared to the nearly 4pm LMST of the sol 0 image. Considering that that colour frame was released less than 24 hours after landing it had to be taken sol 0, late afternoon.
QUOTE (Greenish @ Feb 20 2021, 09:17 PM)
It's hard to believe that these images are from "engineering" cameras... the quality of the Hazcam color image is nuts, and I think it's not even full resolution (all of the ECAMs use the same 5120 x 3840 sensor.)
The hazcam wheel crop is a full-resolution crop, and the [released (and maybe downlinked too)] uncropped colour hazcam is downsampled 4x4. And yeah, they are really nice cameras!
When the first picture came in I heard somebody saying that we were 15 m (or was it 25 ?) from a rock visible on MRO pictures.
Are there L and R hazcam images down? I would like to see Mystery Man standing next to one of those odd boulders.
Keith Cowing of NASA Watch says that a full initial panorama has been successfully taken and images are coming down soon. He has been very accurate over the years, I trust him and his sources completely: https://twitter.com/NASAWatch/status/1363293299562475525
QUOTE (Explorer1 @ Feb 20 2021, 05:33 PM)
He has been very accurate over the years...
The specifics might be true (I can neither confirm nor deny) but his spin is basically garbage. See Emily L's twitter for a more accurate take, specifically
QUOTE
I feel bad for mission personnel who've been told not to even mention images on social media. They should get to be excited in public. It's some of the best STEM outreach @NASA does.
QUOTE (atomoid @ Feb 19 2021, 10:36 PM)
interesting, they even went to the trouble of clarifying the apparent mistake by "..crashes into the terrain with no remaining fuel"
There must be good reason why an emptied fuel tank poses enough an explosion hazard they take measures to avoid, but seems counterintuitive, any explanation?
Not a mistake. Regarding this discussion about remaining fuel in the sky crane, see Post 61 in the topic, Perseverance EDL. http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...=8590&st=60
There must be good reason why an emptied fuel tank poses enough an explosion hazard they take measures to avoid, but seems counterintuitive, any explanation?
Some diversity on Mars!
The stones near the wheel are quite weird! in particular this stone which looks more like a sponge or old gruyère than a stone
If blocks of water ice are hidden inside the rocks why not sublimation events that generate the holes?
The stones near the wheel are quite weird! in particular this stone which looks more like a sponge or old gruyère than a stone
If blocks of water ice are hidden inside the rocks why not sublimation events that generate the holes?
Click to view attachment
I made a new 3D interactive map of the Perseverance landing site. It's available by clicking at:
https://arkeomapia.si/3d/M2020sol0/
No large boulders visible...it looks quite flat.
I made a new 3D interactive map of the Perseverance landing site. It's available by clicking at:
https://arkeomapia.si/3d/M2020sol0/
No large boulders visible...it looks quite flat.
QUOTE (Explorer1 @ Feb 21 2021, 01:33 AM)
Keith Cowing of NASA Watch says that a full initial panorama has been successfully taken and images are coming down soon. He has been very accurate over the years, I trust him and his sources completely: https://twitter.com/NASAWatch/status/1363293299562475525
Kind of weird that we are having to rely on "leaks" and cryptic tweets to find out what is happening with Perseverance.
Every program has its own strategy for EPO. My impression is that they want to have something--maybe a few somethings--to hopefully blow some minds at the Monday presser, and in order to do that they need time to process & integrate the data coming down for the past few days.
There's something to be said for that. Instead of holding daily press conferences with a few frames here and there from (for example) a fairly complete EDL video--perhaps even with sound!--why not wait till the whole thing's down & processed & assembled? Then follow that up with a full color panorama, then answer amazed & delighted questions in front of the news cameras.
Now that's a press conference worth covering live on the major networks right there. Not a lot of people are gonna complain about something spectacular like that preempting an "I Love Lucy" rerun. Plus, it's a much more efficient use of time for all involved, esp. the science leads, most of whom would likely much rather be poring over the data as it comes in instead of sitting on the stage at the Von Karman Theater every day for the next week wishing it was over so they could go back to work.
But that's just my guess.
There's something to be said for that. Instead of holding daily press conferences with a few frames here and there from (for example) a fairly complete EDL video--perhaps even with sound!--why not wait till the whole thing's down & processed & assembled? Then follow that up with a full color panorama, then answer amazed & delighted questions in front of the news cameras.
Now that's a press conference worth covering live on the major networks right there. Not a lot of people are gonna complain about something spectacular like that preempting an "I Love Lucy" rerun. Plus, it's a much more efficient use of time for all involved, esp. the science leads, most of whom would likely much rather be poring over the data as it comes in instead of sitting on the stage at the Von Karman Theater every day for the next week wishing it was over so they could go back to work.
But that's just my guess.
QUOTE (nprev @ Feb 21 2021, 03:25 AM)
My impression is that they want to have something--maybe a few somethings--to hopefully blow some minds at the Monday presser... But that's just my guess.
For some definition of "they" that doesn't include the team that may be true. Do you really think we can't process the data in a couple of minutes to a release-ready state?
You (and we) are just going to have to wait until Monday at 11 AM PST for the press conference.
Wasn't the European mission to a comet was criticized for holding back data from public release? Their excuse was that their academic institutional partners wanted to see it first. Some academics just hate releasing information to the public because they would rather get the credit when their papers are published. Its a stupid system.
These early major press conferences are going to be over with after this week and releases should go back to normal. It makes perfect sense to make them the focal point of attention and awe. NASA needs the public to be wowed and supportive when they have attention like this. We are the minority segment here and not the target but I have no doubt the staff know our value to distribution and analysis after the luster fades away. We'll be awash in images and data very soon.
QUOTE (nprev @ Feb 21 2021, 12:25 PM)
My impression is that they want to have something--maybe a few somethings--to hopefully blow some minds at the Monday presser, and in order to do that they need time to process & integrate the data coming down for the past few days.
Yes, but does that explain that even the single full resolution, greyscale hazcam image posted on the raw site has still not been finalized?
Not to mention the color hazcams they already showed at the presser. I can wait for the EDL engineering camera sweetness until the presser for that maximum wow factor, they deserve that chance as far as I'm concerned, but they sure could have put a filter on uploading those camera data and not prevent "basic" hazcam imagery from being posted.
It's as if the raw image site is just plain dead, almost 3 days after the landing. My memory might be fading, but I don't recall this sort of thing happening with MSL.
Then again, I'm not a U.S. taxpayer so I'm not allowed to complain, this is just an observation. I see a lot of comments on the web about "entitlement" and, to be fair, yes, we were spoiled by NASA's raw image release policies in the past. On the other hand, doesn't NASA pride themselves on full disclosure and public engagement? Unless this raw image site thing is a bug, it sort of indicates a revert to ESA and other space agency policies. Well, you can't have your cake and eat it, can you? Unless "public engagement" nowadays simply means taking questions from social media during live broadcasts.
QUOTE (Explorer1 @ Feb 20 2021, 03:58 PM)
Putting my lawyer hat on (how rarely I can do that on this forum!), can you clarify what you mean by this? The raws are public domain, and that can't be changed by the science team (at least as far as NASA is concerned; ESA images are another matter!).
I am not a lawyer, so I won't speak to the legality; nor an academic scientist, so I won't pretend to know their whole perspective. But as I was perusing the UMSF archives prior to my post above, I learned a lot from this thread, including a message from the Cassini Imaging PI, Carolyn Porco, in post#7.
I suggest reading the full post... but here's some snips that I found compelling.
QUOTE
....In the case of Cassini, if you are an imaging team member, the images are all she wrote. All of our scientific investigations that, for 14 years, we have long planned to do, and for which we were selected for membership on the Imaging Team, are *completely* derived from the images. Hence, whatever concern the team had about the release of raw images to the public had to do with this issue and this issue alone.
....
[I]magine sending out an invitation to a party, describing how fantastically wonderful your party will be, working for weeks on end making all the arrangements for this party, expecting to have a big blow-out that no one will ever forget, and then having all your invitees go instead to the party next door. That would be pretty deflating, wouldn't it?
Now, instead of party and all I've described above, imagine it's not weeks but 14 years of very hard work, requiring enormously long periods of time during which you had to clear the decks of everything, including any semblance of a normal life, to achieve success. And that one of the things you *most* looked forward to, from all your hard work, was presenting to the world the best, most beautiful, most memorable images anyone had seen. In other words, having the world come to your party. And after all your hard work, someone else cuts you out of the equation, throws a party without you. After all your hard work, someone else presents your work to the world.
I ask you: Would *you* be disappointed?
....
....
[I]magine sending out an invitation to a party, describing how fantastically wonderful your party will be, working for weeks on end making all the arrangements for this party, expecting to have a big blow-out that no one will ever forget, and then having all your invitees go instead to the party next door. That would be pretty deflating, wouldn't it?
Now, instead of party and all I've described above, imagine it's not weeks but 14 years of very hard work, requiring enormously long periods of time during which you had to clear the decks of everything, including any semblance of a normal life, to achieve success. And that one of the things you *most* looked forward to, from all your hard work, was presenting to the world the best, most beautiful, most memorable images anyone had seen. In other words, having the world come to your party. And after all your hard work, someone else cuts you out of the equation, throws a party without you. After all your hard work, someone else presents your work to the world.
I ask you: Would *you* be disappointed?
....
As I said I've mostly benefitted from people's lessons learned on this site. It's clear there was some drama at the time, but the resolution I suspect has contributed to the healthy balance we have now.... and probably we should move any further discussion to some other thread. Cheers.
QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Feb 20 2021, 04:08 PM)
Engineering cameras should be the same as MSL: NASA/JPL-Caltech
LCAM: NASA/JPL-Caltech/MSSS
SHERLOC: NASA/JPL-Caltech/MSSS/LANL
Mastcam-Z: NASA/JPL-Caltech/ASU/MSSS
LCAM: NASA/JPL-Caltech/MSSS
SHERLOC: NASA/JPL-Caltech/MSSS/LANL
Mastcam-Z: NASA/JPL-Caltech/ASU/MSSS
Thanks a ton Mike, exactly what I wanted to confirm. IMO your preferences carry a lot of weight here, at least -- given that your ongoing engagement has been a huge part of maintaining that healthy balance of public use of the raws vs. letting the scientists do their work and present it!
QUOTE (Art Martin @ Feb 21 2021, 05:34 PM)
These early major press conferences are going to be over with after this week and releases should go back to normal. It makes perfect sense to make them the focal point of attention and awe. NASA needs the public to be wowed and supportive when they have attention like this. We are the minority segment here and not the target but I have no doubt the staff know our value to distribution and analysis after the luster fades away. We'll be awash in images and data very soon.
I totally agree with you. There is so much at stake with this release and, obviously, it can wait a few more hours.
The goal is to make front line titles in the media to help gaining more budgets for space programs, such as the MSR mission and the future of Artemis.
The space policy still has to be reviewed by the new Administration and we can wait: the more this release impress people (and their representatives at Congress), the more budget you will get in the near future
One thing that we have never seen are rocket exhaust plumes on Mars. The upward looking shots of the skycrane will give us that first glimpse.
Alright. Reminder for everyone to read and heed rule 1.3 right here re astrobiology, and also to note that the topic of this thread is the early days of Percy's sojourn on Mars, not astrobiology.
Yes, we the admin/mod team know that the mission has some explicit astrobiological data acquisition goals. No, we are not going to allow that discussion to monopolize coverage of this mission nor the inevitable secondary speculation that equally inevitably would veer into tin hat territory.
There are innumerable other places on the web for that sort of thing. This is not one of them.
Three posts hidden.
Yes, we the admin/mod team know that the mission has some explicit astrobiological data acquisition goals. No, we are not going to allow that discussion to monopolize coverage of this mission nor the inevitable secondary speculation that equally inevitably would veer into tin hat territory.
There are innumerable other places on the web for that sort of thing. This is not one of them.
Three posts hidden.
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