..well you are a very strict judge, but.. I kinda like it; I must be a masochist of some sort. I just reviewed the panorama again, and seems like the lighting actually casts sharp shadows.

I used this kind of lighting in purpose, because when the air is full of particles, the light source does not hit the item directly, thus causing this shadow effect and not sharp shadows. Upon closer look, you are right, I'll fix this shortly. Improving sounds nice. You sound like a very difficult client! hehe

Having worked in the industry for 12 years....I can tell you - there is no other kind. I'm giving you the hardest time I can, because that's the most appropriate and realistic feedback to get...honestly

These shadows - http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...st&id=26549 - are a little soft, because it's late in the day. Most large color pans are taken between about 11am and 2pm - so near 'noon' like lighting. Bright, sharp etc. Basically, you need to balance that sun light and the backfill diffuse dusting light to get both the right total brightness AND contrast between the illuminated parts and shadowed parts. It'll make you cry to see all your amazing rover electronics box stuff get hidden into shadow, but that's where it's going to end up unless you do late in the day images.

Since this background I used is part of a bigger panorama picture, I found the sun's location. I will render just a shadow render and put it on top of my current render. As for color balance, etc, these I post-process in photoshop. Will get back later on with a new version.

Awesome work scooterlord...

Now that you're actually rendering it in a real environment, consider rotating the wheels in random directions. It's just one of those things (among many others) that help with realism.

Ok, will do so in the next renders... taking ages to control this beast. It's been rendering just the shadow channel for the past 2,5 hours and it's still grainy...

Absolutely stunning work

Maybe adding some wheel tracks will make it even more real looking than it already is

Finally I see the rover in action and is a beauty...
I agree with Doug/Dot suggestions about light and rover tracks, both should definitely add lot of realism!

Here we go... corrected lighting+tracks...



..does this pass the test mr djellison?

The shadow definitely adds realism. However, it looks like you rendered a shadow layer and placed it on the ground, but the rover parts that should also be in the shadow are illuminated too much (the rover body beneath the solar panels for example). The shadow on the ground will also have to match with the shadows that fall on every rover component, in both direction and darkness, or there will be a visual disconnect that will instantly give it away. People who haven't done 3d rendering may sense that something isn't right but may not be able to tell exactly what's missing. The guidance you get here from Doug for example will go a long way, so soak it all in as it will only help you in the long run.

Some 13 years ago I had fun modeling and rendering Anakin's podracer (link). It took me a while, and in the process I learned a LOT. While it doesn't even remotely compare with the effort and detail you put into it, the end composite was rather similar in that it took me many retries to get it believable with shadows and lighting in the right directions. Later I created some product images for the company I worked for, and they were almost indistinguishable from real photographs.

Also, consider adding a small copyright notice to your images you post. Just saying...

If I were scooterlord I wouldn't want to dirty up and shadow all the fantastic detail I just labored to create! But it would make a more realistic mars surface image.

Great work sir!

..the shadow layer correctly shadows all the parts of the rover, not just the ground, if you compare it to the original integration you will realize this. The body is reflective thats why it seems to be lighter..

edit: once again I realize that something went wrong, checking my layers now, and while the shadow layer is right, the illumination layer isn't. GRRR. Next render will be perfect..

edit2: looks like there's a serious restriction with the program I am using. Seems like you cannot use for lighting both physical sun + hdri. So I either have to add a new light source and re-render everything from scratch (which is a no-go because it takes soooo many hours) or what I am doing now. I am rendering using the sun as a source, then overlapping with the original render I had to get color/hue and then add everything else. Hope all goes as planned. To be honest, the render seemed a bit strange, but hey, some things in life seem strange as well like sometimes the car reflections in real life seem 'unrealistic', I thought the program took care of everything but looks like this restriction made it seem a bit odd in the end. Anyway, let's see what happens

Done!... this I think you guys will approve...



I rendered an illumination layer on top of the previous one, deleted a couple of under-layers, improved the dust layer, corrected reflections. This seems right!

Simply Fabulous!


___ _____

heh, I am still waiting for djellison's approval..

You're definitely getting there. The black wheel tread is still reflective rather that just a soft muted shiny, and I'd say you could tone down the saturation of your fill light from BEIGE to 'mocha..extra milk please' - if nothing else to help the rover just stand out a bit more.

Great work though, nice progress. See...told you it would sit well in a real image.

Hmm, the wheels are supposed to be shiny, their material is shiny black.. but I guess I can tone it down a bit. All done from now on in this image is just photoshop post process. I can change the color tint of the rover a bit as well. Any other suggestions so that I can do them all at once?

I second echo each of Doug's suggestions FWIW.

The apparent reflectivity of the wheels has been (to me) the most distracting element of the photo integration. I though the most recent (two?) renders were just a tick heavy on the red side, where a slight shift to a more ocher accent would 'feel' more right.

The shadows look great now!

Your work is incredible; all the more so considering your reference material!

-- Pertinax

(Sorry SL, I see I took to long to type! )

Shiny - but not reflective. And infact, after driving a short distance on Mars, that shine is pretty much gone.

http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/spacecra...mer1_021003.jpg
http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/spacecra...s/tworovers.jpg
http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/ksc_45th/hi-resjpgs/24.jpg

...in 3d shiny=reflective... but I get the point. Will have it fixed later on. I am working on a bar project atm, and working tomorrow morning. I hope I can have this done by tomorrow

Here we go, reflections on the wheels=off, color of the mast > milky.

I think I have a new desktop background.

Many thanks for all the work that's gone on over the months.

Andy

Fabulous as always, but something is *still* wrong with the wheels. Though you say reflections are turned off on the wheels, they still appear to be mirroring their surroundings in an unrealistic way, like they are chrome-plated rather than "shiny black". In fact the underside of the left front wheel looks almost the same color as the surface in front of it, as though it's a perfect (even if slightly diffuse) reflector.

Not that I could do any better or anything :-)

John

First of all, once more, thanks for your kind words! (this applies to everyone not just john_s being quoted).

..what shows on the wheel is dirt added with post-processing methods; it's not reflecting the ground, it's just dirt that stayed on the wheels. I think that from this point on, things become objective and it's just a matter of taste. Some may now ask why the top part of the wheels is not as dirty as the bottom. I don't know, the wind was blowing from behind the rover and cleared it These "perfect" imperfections sometimes happen irl.

...I guess I should start a poll every time I do a render! LOL

...still waiting for Doug's reply, seems to be teaching me how to be a little more perfectionist that I already am.

Yeah - the wheels still look mighty shiny, however you got there. It needs to be a far more matt with a very soft specularity to it. Getting there, but not quite

Another thing worth doing.... take all the layers that make the rover - add a tiny bit of noise, and then soften it by about a third of a pixel, just so the feel, the inherent texture of the rendered image better matches the pancam mosaic.

Goodmorning everyone. I am at work atm, as soon as I get back I'll soften the reflections on the wheels (since everyone seems to agree on this) - however, as you have seen in previous render the material is done properly, so I guess sometimes it needs a different feel. Ok for the noise too - I have a plugin to match the noise of the background.

..I hope we are saved from all these procedures in other renders, I'll try to be more thorough. I have already done a render from the hazcams of the rover, but now I guess I have to change the render's ratio. Also, I will probably have trouble integrating this properly since it's a strange angle...

So, we ended up here... Here is the differences made in the color of the wheels, so you can easily compare with the previous one (left is the new one obviously), along with the slight difference of noise + slight blur for the render to blend better to the image - although I guess this could only be seen in higher zoom levels.

The new render is on a link on the differences images beneath:



Enjoy, I hope we are done


edit: Plus, here is a little something for you to have something to look forward to. Here is a render I also want to photo-integrate. However the angle will give me some troubles, since I haven't been able to find -so far- matching reference from mars...

Nick,
I hope you don't mind, I used your render for a new Facebook profile pic for me. I added a cheesy headset since I do mostly customer support.

Click to view attachment

LOL! no problem!

Got to say - those wheels still look very very shiny. They're not flat black enough by far ( and the chrome metal hold-down bold is still on each wheel )

ahm... I was aiming for a dirty look than a matte black...

I think the dirt is your problem. Maybe delete the dirt and apply something not quite so dense but only on the surfaces that point upward. The down-facing surfaces on the wheels should be mostly black.

For whatever reason - they simply look reflective. You need to quit the 'dirty' idea - and re-render them as near flat matt black. Go look at the amount of influence the bright blue puppy-training paper has on the color of the wheels back at KSC. Almost zero. The dust also tends to slip and slide off very easily. Till you dump the 'dirty' color, I think it'll continue to look shiny and reflective.

If this helps, here are a few images that I think illustrate the way the wheel might look.

First image is based on a Dan Maas model that I added to a Mars scene.
Added some dirt etc to the model for effect.

Second image is the model that sits in the Canberra DSN visitor centre.

Third image is one of the special effects shots produced for JPL.

Hopefully these will give you some handy references.

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

btw, couldn't resist playing with that hazcam image idea
Click to view attachment

yep, I know the proportions aren't right. just playing!

...now I see what your point was. So, once I am done with the rendering I am doing for the job, I'll re-render the wheels in matte black (& without the metal thingies ) and re-integrate. I am glad that you people are happy with everything else, so the wheels is just a minor issue, although it took so much effort :/

edit: Astro0! hehe...

Plus, I wanted to say once more that I would never expect to see so much excitement over a project like this. I mean, yes, I did expect to see some, but not so much. It's great to see your love about this project, even though the rovers are far far away. To me it's turning out to be the main purpose I designed the rover.

So, here is the new render.. click on the differences render for a full view as always...

on the left is the new version, removed the metallic parts from the top of the wheels, rerendered them with a black matte look, retouched the dirt layer a bit.

I can't really believe I'm saying this. They still look reflective. I can see the rocks in the soil infront of the wheels reflected in them.

I thought the same as Doug. I would suggest if you are going to apply dirt, you need to make to make it uniform -- like a fine puff of dust.

Right now you are using a random density pattern that looks like someone placed dirty hands on a wall. Look at Astro0's second and third images again.

Yes the blotches of dirt on the wheels still *look* like reflections of features in the scene, even though I now know that they're not. Even if you accept them as dirt blotches, they don't look realistic. Is there a dirt texture that can be applied that puts the dirt on more evenly, and preferentially in concavities, as in Astro0's examples, which look more realistically dusty in my opinion?

Interesting how getting the dirt to look right is trickier than getting the "showroom floor" rover to look right- not surprising I suppose.

John

Well, to be honest, I think now I got it. I used the shadow layer as a mask in order to dirty up the parts of the wheels that are shadowed (usually where dirt also collects) and voila! Everyone happy now??? ...finally?

Well - there's a couple of things I'd still tweak, and I'm still not convinced by the wheels - but yeah...

that's pretty awesome

A wise man once warned about letting better become the enemy of good enough.

And of course, that depends where you're definition of 'Enough' is.

...well, that's good enough for me... but IS IT? Am I done with this? Can I go on?

For last minute changes, now is your chance!

...I was wondering if I could use this project in some way to release, I don't know, posters or mugs or t-shirts or whatever, but I guess there would be right issues. Is there anyone else here that know who I should talk to? Would any of you be interested in something like this? :/ I know I am printing a huge poster for myself

Astounding!

The only comment I have about the wheels is that they are sitting "on top" of the surface rather than interacting with it. I noticed the same thing with the MER in the lab rendering. It's as though they are perched on a single point at the bottom of each wheel, and so the MER looks like it lacks "weight", for lack of a better term. I know that the wheels don't deform much under the weight of the MER, but certainly in the Mars rendering, they would have penetrated at least a couple mm into the surface.

In airplane scale models, one trick you learn is to flatten the bottom of the tires (and ideally make them bulge out a bit) to mimic how they appear when supporting the weight of the airplane. Is there any such equivalent deformation with the MER wheels?

Again, just my $0.02. Your model is absolutely amazing.

They don't appreciably deform (especially under Mars gravity where each wheel's loading is only about 10kg equiv) - but they do squish into the ground, you're right.

Scooter - as for rights issues.....that's your model, you made it and so own the rights to it, but I would drop JPL media relations a courtesy email just to make sure you're not stepping in any hot water if you try to profit from it, given Caltech's unique relationship between NASA and JPL, and the legal authority they have over the 'likeness' of the rover itself.

Once more, thanks for the valuable information. Will contact them. I was thinking something like a fair price for products, part of which would go to unicef - will also have to contact them to see how things work. Firstly though I'd like to know if there's any interest so that I don't mess with anything if it's not worth bothering.

As for the wheels comment, it's not hard to erase the bottom part of the wheels and make it look like it's in the sand, but as for the studio renders, the wheels sit properly on their bottomest mettalic surface. Can't do anything about that

Nick, that is just awesome, truly AWESOME - I'm running out of words of exaltation!!



There is one teeny weeny omission I've noticed - and unfortunately everytime I look at the image I'm drawn to it - you're missing the front locating pin on the left hand solar panel.

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

- wish I'd spotted in earlier!!

Well, I modeled this, it must have been lost somewhere with the hides, and deletes.. its difficult to manipulate 30.000 objects... something always gets lost :/

Nick,
I know I would be interested in a poster. I am thinking of creating a UMSF "exhibit booth" and would love to show off some of your work. I was downright appalled at how bad the presentation booths looked at my son's recent Science Fair. Not the kids, those were great; I mean the ones from local companies and non-profits. I thought to myself "I could make a booth 100x better than these with a couple of old computers from Discount Electronics and some posters from UMSF." I'm working on a photoshop mockup now to see how it would look.