Of course, a 750M wide crater is 2.3km around - given that one would hope to drive perhaps 10-30m from the rim, a 'lap' of Victoria could be as much 2.4, 2.5 km. That's a lot more driving to be asking of a tired little rover. I'd be happier with a quarter-lap of the crater to produce a high resolution DEM of the crater for planning, and then entry somewhere on the Northern rim around late spring

Doug

Did somebody mention the dark streaks heading N from VC were (reletively) new features?
I have a hypothesis about their origin...
Looking at the beautiful 3D view at http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2006/01/24/ I can see a cliff between V2 and V3 descending into the crater. About halfway down the soil abruptly turns dark, perhaps newly exposed soil. The debris in the crater seems devoid of large rocks or boulders so the sides may not be more compressed clay-like soil that is prone to landslides. The dark plumes may be the resulting dust cloud released by a recent slide carried off to the north by the prevalent wind. A slightly older slide might the gully as mentioned before - the dark plume is not as dark having brightened because of sunlight exposure.

I'm a longtime lurker and enthousiastic about this mission - so don't be too harsh in tearing this idea apart.

You are thinking of Elizabeth. Victoria had 9 kids and so while she may have been a prude she was not so much of a virgin. So, if the name does turn out to be prophetic, we can expect at least nine productive incursions.

algorimancer said "I also thought it was named after the "virgin queen"".

Queen Victoria may have looked like a bad-tempered old prune but she was no virgin! Elizabeth I was the virgin queen... so-called.

Doug said "Fram was a tender to the Endurance."

Fram was used by Nansen in the Arctic and by Amundsen in the Antarctic, several years before Shackleton's expedition in the Endurance. I suppose it's not impossible that Fram was used as a tender for Endurance, but that's hardly its claim to fame.

Phil

>That's a lot more driving to be asking of a tired little rover.

Ah, we have become so accustomed to Oppy attaining the unattainable that a 2.5km journey around the crater is not unthinkable. But you're correct, that would be more a publicity stunt and less good science.

A quarter lap, and then down the rabbit hole makse more sense.

I think that the dark northern streaks are simply aeolian/windblown deposits of the dark lower unit, just as there is the usual light-toned "evaporite" streak SE of most craters. The mystery why the change in wind direction (likely seasonal) and why these non-typical dark streaks at this crater.

We'll figure it out, eventually.

--Bill

So did I.
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...indpost&p=50768

This was a good topic to start; so thanks to Stu for that, and for the nice, simulated view of VC. Thanks also to everyone else for their contributions.

Regarding the dark streaks on the north side, I think they are likely caused by light colored dust being eroded by wind vortices, created by the topographic expression of the north rim. See how the lines converge to points on that edge. That makes me think that those vertices would be good locations for Opportunity to park for a while to get a good solar panel cleaning.

Quite right - not quite sure where I got the tender idea into my head.

Doug

nine productive incursions

Aaah, and they say romance is dead...!

Loving how this discussion is going, some great theories and speculation. I agree that a complete lap of the crater is almost certainly too much to ask for, as Doug pointed out. So, the first big question is, I guess, which direction do we head in after our first peek over the edge? I suppose that will be determined mainly by the appearance, appeal and scientific value of the features we see from our "First Look" location, but if you were in charge, which way would you go - east, to explore the sources of the dark plumes we see streaking away from the crater's edge, and beyond that to the two major terraces T1 and T2, or west, to go look at V4, the widest and most eroded of the plume sources, and beyond that, terrace T5, which appears to have some secondary terraces and layers within it..?

From what I've seen so far, detailed views of the northern rim features will only be obtained from the eastern or western sides, which is still quite a drive as Doug says. Just a shame that the south side isn't the north side, then we would have a grandstand panoramic sweeping view of all those lovely tall features on the northern rim... oh well...

Personally, I think I'd like to see Oppy head east, first to take a look at the plumes and one of their sources, then continue on to T1, because from there I reckon she'd 1) have a spectacular view of the dune field down below and the crater edge from T4 right round to V2 - a jaw-dropping panorama if ever there was one! - and 2) it would take her closer to an access point into the crater itself; heading west will take her away from any access points.

Again, personally, I'm dying to find out what lurks in the shadows between T5 and V1... what dramatic ledges, rockfalls and scree sprays are there just waiting to be photographed?

Shaka: nice idea about Sofi's Crater. I hope NASA is planning some way to immortalise her at one of the landing sites, it would only be fair, right?

Cosmic Rocker: nice idea about the "dark streaks" on the surface actually being areas cleaned of surface dust by the wind. After all, we see dust devils leaving dark scoured trails behind them, so there might be something worth looking at here, good call.

I can see I'm going to have to go edit my story to take account of all these excellent ideas.

Doug:

Wasn't it because of the Elvis Presley song about the Scottish pigeon pie?

Bob Shaw

You are of course correct... sorry, I always mix those two. Product of an American education, I'm sure

Let's hope it is indeed prophetic

I would go for names related with Magellan's circumnavigation, (Victoria was the only ship that managed to return safe, with only 18 survivors aboard...), in this resumed text of the journey there are good examples for naming features:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1519magellan.html

Stu, nice to read here old friend!

I'd never heard of this vessel, and googled up this interesting site:
http://www.fram.museum.no/en/

Ob. relevant comment: seeing those images of the IDD in action reminded me that it's not just wheel problems that could slow Opportunity down. I'd be delighted to miss my bet of Sol 987 of course... I also just happened to get round to listening to the last audio update, and when asked how aggressive the driving strategy would be, Jim Bell said (words to the effect of) "Well, if we see a dinosaur bone or a supermarket trolley sticking out of the sand, we'll stop and take a look, but otherwise getting to Victoria is our top priority." I don't see any rusty metal baskets appearing so I wonder how the recent break fits into the strategy? Is it that Opportunity has to stop for a recharge after a few days' continuous driving, and took advantage of the break to do some closeup studies?

Okay, we all seem agreed that naming features after Magellan-related places, people etc is appropriate... let's start getting that map filled in! Can I open with suggesting we call outcrop/terrace T4 "Mount St Paul" (because of its apparrent height above the crater floor) and outcrop/terrace T2 "Thieves Island" because... well, because it's a cool name...

( Ustrax, good to see you back here too! Check out the new story here...)

Fram was built for Nansen's expedition in 1893-96 when she drifted from northeastern Siberia across the Arctic Ocean to the North Atlantic. She was then used by Sverdrup for his expedition to the northern Parry Archipelago 1898-1900 and finally by Amundsen for his expedition to the South Pole in 1911-12.
She is arguably the must successful arctic exploration vessel ever built, but she was never a tender to Endurannce. Actually I think she is worth a larger crater than she got.
Fram is preserved in a museum at Bygdöy in Oslo and is definitely worth seeing if you ever visit Norway.

A few more ideas for Magellan-related names: Patagonia, Tierra del Fuego, Pigafetta

tty

Whew! I'm not nearly as worried about the apparent steepness of Victoria's walls...if you look at the 3d image of Endurance it looks like a monsterous drop too, but we all know what it was really like. Check out the attachment of Victoria side by side with Endurance.

Another name to conjure with is, of course, 'Discovery'. Here she is in dock at Dundee in Scotland, with the Moon behind her masts.

She looked a bit different in the movie.

Bob Shaw

Right! With all those kilometers of convoluted rim, there must be some approachable areas. It can't all be impassable. Remember what fun it was to imagine and trace possible paths into Endurance after the first panoramic views from the rim came down? Now multiply that several fold! We'll have plenty of time to mull over potential paths before Opportunity is ready to actually enter the crater.

Great Britain should be in there somewhere Fantastic boat.

Doug

This was the third reference - besides me (Post #11) and Doug (Post #33).

Btw: Welcome to Mars, BEHSTeacher!

MizarKey, that 3D view is stunning... sorry Nico and Doug, missed your refs first time round... and I agree, it actually makes Victoria look a rather less threatening place than I'd previously thought. All the detail around and beneath the outcrops makes them look a lot less dangerous and menacing than on other images - in fact, V4 now looks like a very convenient smooth ramp down into the crater... crying out to be called "The Valley Without Peril"! Maybe not totally without peril, it still looks VERY steep...

Won't the south facing slope at V4 pose a problem during the winter, which I assume it will still be when it gets there given the current breakneck pace.

Brian

According to the present Oppy pace toward Victoria Crater, it would be VC at around 2nd week of July, that is Winter. The most probably, Oppy must look for any place with good slope that is northern facing (southern rim) for powering its solar panel. That place might be a mandatory. Besides, the southern rim has smoother slope and also of soft ground sand (sand deposition) that is very good for going down but very bad for climbing.

However, sure, the rover team, will make a very cool evaluation to decide to go down or not depending upon the possibility to get out of the VC after the winter.

Rodolfo

Perhaps you were thinking of the James Caird?

Of course, you're right. Scientific probity, etc. etc. But I keep looking at that tiny little crater on the southern rim of Victoria. And I can't help but be reminded of who married "Miss Vicky" on the Tonight Show back in the 70's. Tiny Tim! Wouldn't that make a great name?

David

Yeah that has caught my eye too. It reminds me of the one they called "Rimshot" at the Pathfinder site.

My most painful recollection of a rimshot was in Game 7 of the 2002 NBA (basketball) Western Conference finals- Sacramento and Los Angeles were tied 3 games a piece. I was there, the place was going wild. The game was tied at the closing buzzer and Sacramento's Doug Christie lofted a shot from center court that would have decided the season. It hit the rim, paused, and rolled out. (Sacramento later lost in overtime).

For that memory, they should call that crater Doug Christie (keep in mind, JPL is in Los Angeles, so they would consider it a fond memory).

Anyone else?

What I also like in this "new" topic is that we don't even doubt that Oppy will get there and that we don't even mind when
go UMSF'ers go
thanks Stu

Without a sophisticated 3D CAD package to make me a model of Victoria with, I went back to basics...

3D Victoria model

Not exactly Industrial Light and Magic, I know, and absolutely no use at all as a serious research tool, I just fancied having a model of the real thing to look at when Oppy reaches it in July. And it does make it seem kinda more real when you see it...

You were lucky to find something bowl-shaped as a starting point.

3D Victoria Model

That looks good, although my first impression was "Mr Bill Crater" Ohh Nooo!!!....

--Bill

Kewl. Can you prepare an anaglyph?
P.S. Do your kids know you stole their modelling clay?

I must be getting pessimistic in my old age, because I just can't see any way into Victoria. The most "nearly" point must be just south of the prominent feature at around 4 o'clock, but even there the break in the upper 'crust' appears (to my ignorant eyes) to be perhaps half the entire depth of Endurance. Even if the sand 'ramp' is firm enough to support Oppy, and the angle is sufficiently shallow for Oppy to negotiate, how could she safely navigate the highest outcrop? I'd love to be proved wrong by events about this, as well as the arrival date...

How thick IS that layer, anyway? It must be a couple of meters at the very least.

Of course I'm speculating wildly... the resolution in those images must be a couple of meters at least, impossible to see how smooth or steep the slopes are at rover-scale.

Err - that IS an anaglyph.

Doug

Aha! That explains the multicolored modelling clay! O.K. I've looked now with my anaglyph glasses, but to accurately assess the model I'll need some critical statistics: Is it a soup bowl or a pasta plate? It's important!

Found the source of my tender-to-endurance-brain-fart...

The crater just north of the 'speed record' drive is called James Caird - and that WAS one of tenders to the Endurance, the one in which Shackleton et.al. set out to get help for the rest of the crew.

For those that have not - get, beg, steel, buy, borrow a copy of Channel 4's dramatisation of 'Shackleton' with Ken "3 hour long Hamlet" Brannagh...excellent all round

Doug

Now THAT's obsession...!

Reminds me of Close Encounters of the Third Kind where the folks were frantically modeling the Devil's Tower...

Actually, I was wondering if this was the Aardman Animation version of Victoria crater.

More cheese, Gromit?

Totally agree, Doug. Quite off-topic, the James Caird is still in existence at Dulwich College in London, and is well-worth seeing. This 23-foot boat was sailed 1300 kilometres across the worst seas in the world, during an Antarctic winter, to allow Shackleton and three others to raise the alarm and promote a rescue of the other survivors of the wreck of the Endurance. A shame that the full story of this polar expedition was all-but buried during the Great War: but a fantastic achievement of human tenacity and skill in (blimey) a non-GPS/satellite telephone world.

...And now back to our regular channel of more modern exploration!

Andy G

Aha! That explains the multicolored modelling clay! O.K. I've looked now with my anaglyph glasses, but to accurately assess the model I'll need some critical statistics: Is it a soup bowl or a pasta plate? It's important!

Don't worry Shaka, no childrens' modelling clay was used or stolen in the preparation of the model - it was actually not modelling clay, but that "blu-tac" sticky stuff you use to put up posters with... dimension wise it's a humble cereal bowl, nothing as fancy as a pasta plate. It's probably too deep to be honest, but all the others I had in the cupboard had designs on them, and as hard as I look at the MGS images I can't see sheepdogs, bramble hedges or cute little puppies on Victoria's floor...

And Pando, you're right, there I was in my front room, surrounded by twigs, dirt and bits of fence, having failed to recreate Victoria with a bin lid. A cereal bowl seemed the only alternative as I knelt there saying "This is important.... this is important...!"

Seriously tho, making that model made Victoria seem much more real somehow, and although they aren't good enough to share because of the sheer inaccuracy of the features, I had great fun taking pics from different points around the rim and "looking" at the view over to the other side. I guess it's all to do with us human beings having more of a connection with something physical than a picture...

Brilliant Crater Stu,

Now I know what to do with the millions of ash trays that will be redundant when the UK-wide smoking-in-public-places ban comes into force next year............

Brian

Speaking of obsession, here's a quick and dirty animation I made...

Great!

But, are we *really* sure it's an impact crater at all? Those edgy things look so like... ...teeth. How big can a Sarlac actually get? Stay away, wittle Wover, stay awa-a-a-a-ay!

Bob Shaw

You could be right

According to this Wikipedia article [...] there are apparently other Sarlaccs on Tatooine and other planets [...]!

And [...] no one has taken the time to study this dangerous creature [...]. So who knows, probably they grow that big?


Michael

Back on "VC features", I'm not quite sure that dunes insides VC get the same orientations as the one in Endurance. Is that true ? Does it means that dunes' orientation is related to wind direction at Meridiani or is it more crater's shape related ?
Thanks
Climber

[quote name='climber' -Quote removed - un-needed when replying to it.....
[/quote]

The ridges at the bottom of VC are of the Network type: Networked ridges in troughs on Mars tend to form in local topographic lows and areas of secondary flow circulation. They are closely spaced and appear to be smaller than the other ridge types. See the
following picture

Click to view attachment

Rodolfo

Hey Pando,

How did you get your cereal bowl to spin around so quickly without flying off the table?

That's excellent, thanks very much for letting us see that.

Several people told me they couldn't view WMV file (Mac users) so here's an MPG of the animation I posted earlier...

Oh, and Stu, I nailed the center vertex down tight...

VERY nice Pando... with all theser simulations, renderings and anaglyphs, Victoria's become a real place now, hasn't it?

Can't wait for our first real view of it!

Any ideas what this distinctive light protuberance on Victoria's rim is? It's still too far to discern any shape really but my human tendency for pattern seeking is trying to tell me it's a pyramid.

From the latest pancam in Victora's direction - with no stretch:
Click to view attachment

(the light speck right on the horizon)

A cross-eyed stereogram of the feature (brightness and contrast slightly mismatched, sorry):

Click to view attachment