A more detailed vision trying to wake up some supporters on both sides of the Stadium...:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/ustrax3/beacon7.jpg

Just being delirious...

In the latest pancam images, on the horizon, seems to be appearing a fainted elevation...
I've tried to draw it's profile and it's quite near the one I've presented earlier:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/ustrax3/beacon8.jpg

Original here:

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...A3P2416L2M1.JPG

Yes, but to be fair, have you also looked for correspondences on the far rim along your lines of sight?

nope...

Got to go!

ustrax, I hate to say it, but I think you're looking to wrong features. The PanCam image you pointed out is looking toward South, to the right of "Corner Crater" (visible on the left)...
In fact, we didn't see the beacon in the last 5 Sol!

So...Forget the last thing I've linked...
Don't follow me. I'm lost. Lost!

After arguing against both near and far in my last post, I've decided it would be weirder to happen to see a pixel or two of the far rim peeking up than for an anomalous chunk to be sitting on the near rim.

So, please add me to the near rim team. (And I hope my sense of "weirdness" isn't too terrestrial!)

Fred.

maybe im lost again, but does this new sol 828 image show corner crater and a bit to the left of it as expected, a little rumple pile that is part of Victoria?

It is certain since Oppy has not transversed between the sol 823 and sol 828. It was sitting at about the same place.

The last south east PANCAM picture does not show up the most overlooked "Beacon".

What has happened it?

I would not believe it would be a something movil stuff.

If the beacon belong to the far ream, then it might be so since the Oppy transverse over sand ripples like a boat on a somewhat rough sea, so the view to the beacon will appear and disappear everytime it crosses a bump of sand. However I am still in the near side of stadium.

Rodolfo

Emergency. Emergency. Paging Dr. Tesheiner. Ustrax requires Iberian CPR!*

*Rhythmic series of hugs

Is the reason it is lost from view because corner crater itself is obscuring it? Or, dare I suggest that a near-rim protrusion occulted the far-rim beacon? Did the same martians that covered up the Abyss with such obviously fake sand dunes also disconnect power to the beacon to further confuse ustrax?

Hey, that's it! Team Far-rim should take a page from lawyer tactics: we won't bother proving our assertion, only mount a mud-slinging campaign against ustrax to discredit his!

I wonder how much time Oppy will spend investigating Corner Crater before the final approach? Seems like it might contain some useful/approachable outcrops that will be seen on the upper rims of Victoria, so I wonder if I should add 30 more Sols to my anticipated arrival date?

This is not (exactly) about the beacon, but what antoniseb asked will be partly answered, hopefully. I have been wondering why no one has attempted to make vertical parallax measurements of VC based on the available map-projected MOC images. So I took the task.

The idea is simple enough: draw lines between corresponding points on both images of a stereograph and measure the difference in the left-to-right pixel readings at the end of each line. This gives the relative height, or 'pixel parallax' between these points. While drawing you must look the image eyes crossed, as your eyes are the best instrument for this kind of work.

-- During the work you really look like this: 3-d
;-)

The stereograph is surveying Victoria from a vantage point on the highest part of the rim (its height similarly measured from a larger image). 'Pixel parallaxes' of various points are given relative to Oppy's sol 823 level. You can check the validity of my measurements simply by crossing your eyes...

And now we only need to know how the pixel parallax translates into meters. Let's say one unit of 'pixel parallax', or whatever it's to be called, is 2 m. In this case the near rim of VC is 3 x 2 m = 6 m high. And you can similarly calculate all the other heights I have pointed. According to this VC would be about 50 m deep (56 m from the highest rim).

I've been irritated by this as well. The question is: have the last few pancam pans extended far enough east to include the beacon? I'm not sure that they have. Can someone calculate the angles covered by the leftmost frame? JPL may be centering on Corner Crater as its intended drive direction and just missing Beacon.
If it really has disappeared, then the Far-rimmers may have cause for hope.

Lord! Trying to see what Ustrax and Marswiggle see has given me a splitting headache!
Does anyone know an easy way to uncross eyes?

Well...According to the boss...:

'Hi: I actually don't know where this feature is. To be honest, I don't pay close attention to such issues. We know exactly where the rover is, of course, by matching the features that we see immediately around it with features observed from orbit. We put a great deal of effort into determining this information, and we use it on a daily tactical basis to plan each of our drives. But the very distant views of features near Victoria are still too low in resolution for us to do any useful science with them, and they also don't really have any impact on our daily drive decisions. So I don't worry about them much. The answers will all become very clear as we get closer; for now, enjoy speculating!

Cheers, SS'

I enjoy speculating...Don't you?...

[quote name='Shaka' date='May 24 2006, 09:10 PM' post='55604']
Lord! Trying to see what Ustrax and Marswiggle see has given me a splitting headache!
Does anyone know an easy way to uncross eyes?

Close one

I signed up only to post my two cents and say that the far rim idea for the Beacon would dictate that that one "tentacle" would have to be significantly higher than the adjacent tentacles, else you'd see similar peaks -- just perhaps not quite so tall. While I've seen a few images earlier in this thread indicating there could be additional peaks, non are obvioiusly as tall as that Beacon.

But from Marswiggle's overhead imagery, the shadows of the peaks don't really tell me that one peak is significantly higher than the others. Perhaps the "Pyramid" "tentacle" is indeed a local high on the far rim, but not so much so that it would be the only thing visible from such a distance. That would be a significant outcrop of evaporite thrust up, which would make sense, but would also cast a much better shadow as seen from the overhead shots.

So, using that backhanded reasoning, I vote near rim for the Beacon.

Marswiggle, that is an excellent cross-eye-o-gram, thank you!

- Yup, obviously the far-rim beacon sank down below the near rim, only to be seen again when we climb the ledge...

Bobby: If theres a vote for this I say near rim, since that been my thinking almost all the time with only some slight hesitation.

Wheee! You cheeky bugger! Did you email our mighty PI to enroll him in the Near-rimmers?
What you should have asked him is when we'd get the next update on the findings at Home Plate!
"...enjoy speculating.." Really, doesn't he know we're doing very serious optical geometric research?
...28,375 bottles of beer on the wall...

Tentacles? And pyramids too? Oh, joy! Let us ululate in the direction of both the near and far rim, lest the Deep Old Ones take offence at our presumption! Aiiiii! We Are Not Worthy!

I've just had a disturbing (as opposed to merely 'disturbed') thought about the UMSF BBQ, and the lack of anything to eat... ...except, er, us... ...still, last in the queue, that's me. I hope!

And 'Steve Squyres' is an anagram of 'Qsst Yevres', the well-known motto of the Innsmouth Institute of Technology, oh yessss!

Bob Shaw

If we are talking about the same feature, it's another little crater at the ejecta blanket in the way to VC rim.
Check a post I did after sol 823 move, about the headings to Corner Crater, the beacon *and* this "new" crater.



I should do the maths but in a first glance the beacon is just outside the pancams field-of-view, to the left of the leftmost shot.

Edited: The beacon is about 15º to the left of CC. Given that such crater is on the *first* of four pancam images taken it confirms the beacon is outside the mosaic's fov.

[quote name='Bob Shaw' date='May 24 2006, 10:55 PM' post='55625']
I've just had a disturbing (as opposed to merely 'disturbed') thought about the UMSF BBQ, and the lack of anything to eat
Bob Shaw

Could have been worse. At least we've got the Plate

Hope this helps, Bob:Click to view attachment

Castor, this is the sort of problem we need help with. How quickly can you reach Glasgow with a bucket of ice water?

Shaka:

Are you suggesting that the beacon is in fact the wan light of Mars reflecting off Marvin's helmet?

A credible hypothesis - now to be known to the history of science as Shaka's Postulate. Fame at last! Even if it is found at last to be merely a boulder, it should be known as Mount Shaka as a memorial to your, er, you know.

Oh, and iced water would be *warmer* than my usual surroundings, and so much warmer than Aberdeen's balmy climate that Castor might well swoon, laid low by the almost-tropic heat.

Bob Shaw

Shaka, Steve Squyres shoud be holding a sponge and cleaning the solar panels :-)

Thanks for that. i think am no longer lost.. i think. from looking at your post #380 its clear that the little rumple pile is indeed the crater you marked with the red line.

...and to the left should be the beacon thats is no longer there, well maybe its just offscreen in the pancam, but its missing in the nav image too. Wha happen? The big white Winnebago must have packed up and drove away, no good fishing in Victoria Crater?

Bob is probably right about the climate. It's far too hot in Glasgow for me..... Mind you the skies are clearer on this side of the country, so I know where I'd rather be! Sounds like a cue for another "side" poll (eastside vs. westside) - on second thoughts, let's not go down that route.

For the record, I'm going to vote on the near side for the Victoria beacon. I'm persuaded more by the parallax arguments.

Castor

Mmm, has it been visible before on navcams? Don't think so.

atomoid, the pancam image you've linked is focused on the area the beacon should be seen?
If it is so maybe it's there but not so bright as usual.

This looks like it could be it, similar shape:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/ustrax3/beacon9.jpg

Sol 830, just starting, is driving day.

Good hint! Since I was wondering about this but luckly you had jumped to explain it. Out of sight of FOV.

Now, I am guessing that the rovers' drivers want to stop by the corner craters and then last sniffing around that for many soles.

Rodolfo

Updated Vote count as of May 25 at 1:20 PM Pacific Time
Final Vote count due to Restricted Sols will be May 25

Here are the votes:

Far Rim

1. ElkGroveDan
2. prometheus
3. climber
4. MahFL
5. Joffan
6. bergadder
7. Stu
8. Nix
9. Bill Harris
10. centsworth II
11. alan
12. dilo
13. Kenny
15. Marz
16. Oersted
17. atomoid
18. antonised

Near Rim

1. lyford
2. sranderson
3. helvick
4. Tesheiner
5. ustrax
6. Chris
7. RNeuhaus
8. dvandorn
9. imipak
10. Shaka
11. Phil Stooke
12. jamescanvin
13. mchan
14. DFinfrock
15. ant103
16. fredk
17. Windy T
18. myran

Fence Sitters and yes this is just a fun Game of figuring it out what side Beacon is on.

1. djellison
2. Bob Shaw
3. Zeke4ther
4. Tman
5. marswiggle

Uh Oh! It's a tie! That means beacon is on neither rim. Aha, fortunately I always had the secret second guess that it was right in the middle of Victoria - a ceremonial flagpole to be used during beach volleyball tournaments.
When we arrive at VC, the Near-rimmers will all stand on the near rim, the Far-rimmers on the far rim, and the fence-sitters go down in the crater, and we all throw evaporite at them!
Wagons, Hoooo!

I noticed that too, Shaka. Though I think it's because the data is so scant it really has come down to a 50/50 split due to the laws of chance.... could go either way!

But if your flagpole theory is right, I'll owe you a Marsbar.

Yes, I too am wondering what happened to the other 708 votes. I hope there's nothing unscrupulous going on. We should have had Jimmy Carter here.

A new uncertain rule. There is a risk that the beacon is not neither far or near rim. So I would propose a new rule.

The dividing line which limits between far and near rim? Let propose that the extremes of diameter of VC are pointing to 65 degree (NorthEast) and 255 degree (SouthWest). The range of 256 to 65 degree belongs to Near Rimers and the range from 66 to 255 belongs to Far Rimers
.

Rodolfo

P.D. I am still not sure about the right angle which the Oppy is looking to VC. I tought it would be at 165 degree (SE).

Rodolfo:

No, no. Surely that's backwards? Or sideways?

Bob Shaw

It's a true pity Jonathan Swift isn't around any more. The antics at UMSF would surely warm his heart.

Yes, i did think so too, but why is it so dim now? because of this i assume it is offscreen in the sol 828 pancam, but if it is, then i think it really is on the far rim and has been eclipsed enough by the near rim that it now appears dimmer. if this is correct then we wont see it again until we edge up near the precipice of Victoria.

Tesheiner, you are probably right, it was always almost invisible in the navcams due to subpixel resolution, so i thought i would go find and link a somewhat brighter one from sols past that i thought i remembered comparing with, but cannot find it! i must have had a senior moment there...

Umm, no it's not. I've been purged from Team Far Rim. There is no question now that the Nearsighted are engaged in some sort of massive conspiracy here. We Who Know The Truth shall now have to hide out in treetops and shout out rude names at them.

Brian

To BrianL. Sorry I missed putting your name onto the Far Side Rim Club and I feel foolish as my vote for the Far Rim is not on there also.

I will make the correction soon

Whoaaa! http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...DPP2418L2M1.JPG
Da Beacon is BACK! He is WHITE, and he is BAAAD!
And it doesn't take Tesh to see that he has puppies!
It's Showtime, Dudes. Do your things.

P.S. Yo! Near Rim Brothers, we rule.
P.P.S. Ustrax, Bro', maybe that email moved some mountains.

I was just going to post that image of Beacon Shaka and you beat me by it by 15 minutes.



I also have another question. What time does Unmanned Spaceflight.com use?
I'm on Pacific Time.

So, finally we see it!
Herebelow the image processing... even without it, in both left and right pancam we can see that Beacon is not lonely now, we have other similar features already suspected in the past and now evident!!! (Ustrax, this time you're right! - let's naming them...)

Well, looks like I missed adding my name to the bucket, so here it goes. The beacon is at:

F A R
R I M

We're seeing the edge of outcrop at the far rim over the near rim.

Wow!

I agree Pando, it looks like a goal for the far team tosol. But the game's not over yet...

Fustest with the mostest, Lad, fustest with the mostest.
At Emily's request we use Venusian Eastern Daylight Time, but you can set any time zone you crave in Your Controls.

And I voted for near rim somewhere a few messages back yesterday. Hopefully in time for your deadline.

So it's still a tie....

Castor

Due to me missing some votes and setting the 25th as a deadline. I will extend it by only 2 more days till midinight Pacific Time Saturday. I will add up all votes and give a final vote count Friday and Sunday.