Outstanding! I'd like to say so much more, but you people have used up all of the relevant superlatives, and have even invented a few new ones.
For those of you who, like me, missed the original webcast, here is a link to NPR's archived audio.


Just to put things into perspective for readers who may not be as familiar with the history of the rovers as some of us MER addicts, 12 km is approximately as far as Opportunity has already roved since it landed in Eagle Crater. As of the latest update, it has gone about 11,782.10 meters (7.32 miles).



I agree, Rui. We're all attracted to the MERs by the exploration aspect of this pioneer mission. Let's get on with it. It is not necessary to delay in this area, unless the team feels they have unfinished business here. We have enough HiRise and other imagery to get started. They should have plenty of time to analyze the October 9/10th HiRise imagery before before they run out of driveway.
..............................................................

It was great to get this very nice update from several Mars exploration teams, but NPR's "Click and Clack" format for this program was seriously annoying to me. This isn't funny, it's science, and it's serious. That is not intended to be overly critical. It was an excellent program that covered many aspects of the discussion, from geology to biology, and various areas in between. I'm happy about that aspect.

I would like to hear more about the columnar jointing and other theories that were discussed. The webcast sounded to me like a well rehearsed program, as opposed to a typical update from our various sources. What do you people think?

That might not be the best approach. As was pointed out by Doug in the earlier discussions, there appear to be significant ripples on the direct path. I think the suggestion was a better route might be to head NE before heading south. This journey will be long enough and hard enough without getting part way then being forced to turn back. I would wait for the complete picture before committing to a route.

Of course, that's the intellectual part of me coming through, which in my case, will always be the minority report. The larger part of me did some mental cartwheels upon seeing this new thread, and wanted to shout, "Yeah baby, put the pedal to the metal"! Well, as much as a rover can, anyway.

I'd like to see end to end HiRISE imagery before we set out - a month, maybe two - and seriously - there is still fun to be had at Victoria anyway.

How else are we going to play the part of noisy back-seat drivers?

Speaking of drivers, I believe some of the real ones already heard the news and said: "Are you crazy?!?".
Just check the latest hazcam pictures (here: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...cam/2008-09-19/) to find that Opportunity was commanded to dig in deeper in the ripple she's currently parked.
A riot, maybe?

...before we set out - a month, maybe two...

Didn't SS say that they were going to set out on the journey "within the next week", "hit the gas probably in the middle of next week"?
This was at 26m12s into the NPR broadcast.

Maybe they have enough HiRise imagery to go on to get started. At least head off across the annulus.

Onwards!

Anyone have any idea what the maximum driving distance per day would be on this terrain if (cross fingers this won't happen) one of the wheels did fail? I'm thinking it might be further than Spirit has been able to achieve in rocky Gusev.

Yeap...that is correct...
Here's the rough transcript, including the 100 meters (or more!) driving distance per day...:

"IF - When will the rover decide to go on that journey? Kick the tires and getting going?

SS - I think it’s probably going to be within next week Ira…we’ve pretty much finished up our work at Victoria Crater…we’re hit gas probably middle of next week.

IF - Wow…and how far per day gonna make its way?

SS - We think that we can average a 100 meters each day that we drive and…I…you know…I should point out what you asked Alfred earlier, was HiRISE envolved in planning this drive and his response was actually way too modest…the reality is that HiRISE is what is enabling this drive. We wouldn’t dare try this if we hadn’t the HiRISE data but what HiRISE does is provides us with spectacular roadmap that tells us how to get from here to where we’re going so…we think that with the HiRISE data as a guide we can probably do better than a hundred meters a hundred yards in a day."

Regarding the NE path...that reminded me of dvandorn's ABC (Doug's Athos, Porthos and Aramis) craters path, will this be it or is Oppy to follow NE but make the E turn closer to Victoria?

EDITED: SFJCody, Squyres announcement was made just two days before completing the two years anniversary of the first time you mentioned this "crazy" idea...

Here's a nice view of the Road to Endeavour Crater. Enjoy
Click to view attachment

Astro0

There is a pleasingly fractal quality to Opportunity's (Eagle->Endurance->Victoria->Endeavour) crater hopping.

Enjoy?!?!? How the frak can I enjoy it when I've just fallen off my chair in shock?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?! You've really got to give us some kind of warning before you post things like that my friend!!

Do we have DEM data of this area?
Doug, what about a fly-by movie of the journey from VC to Endeavour?

The hematite signature is weak at the centre of Endeavour. Now this could be due to dark basaltic drift deposits... or it could be due to an exposure of the (phyllosilicate bearing) material underlying the sulphate/hematite plains!



Edit: Looking at this pre MER landing image of the hematite signal strength it seems one of the two images (either this one or the one from the MSL Landing site workshop) is misaligned. If the older image is correct the low hematite signal is in the eastern rim of Endeavour.

Edit 2: I'm convinced the older map is the correct one, and that the map attached to this post from the MSL Landing site workshop is incorrectly georeferenced (areoreferenced?)

Of course you're not thinking we'll make THAT far?...
Regarding the signature, it seems to correspond, roughly, to the lower part of the terrasses we can see in this image.
Click this one for the full context.
If Miyamoto was almost out of MSL landing site race now it is done for good...Oppy will make it there!...

Astro0...damn you for coming up with stuff like this...beautiful!

Thats what I'm talkin' about! Go oppy! Mars is along way off so: GO OPPY!

That image is just perfect, Astro0.

I hadn't heard that bit before I had to set off to Muenster for EPSC. But I have now



We only have a DEM of Victoria.

Doug

Having finally listened to the interview, my favourite line is definitely


One thing to add is I think Endeavour is 12km as the Martian crow flies, so it would be a fair bit farther for a realistic zig-zaggy route. And of course it depends on what part of Endeavour they choose as the first target. The far (SE) rim looks maybe most interesting, then the west rim, and then the north rim. Or would they be more interested in driving into the interior?

My guess is still that the north rim would be easiest to get to, by heading NE and then following the flat "tarmac" east. But who knows - maybe with hirise they think they could make their way fast through dunes. Also Squyres said they're interested in science on the way southeast - that has to be an important consideration when the final target is maybe two years away!

Whatever route they choose, I can't wait to get on board as a back seat driver!

My impression from the available HiRISE images is that the terrain to the south is more favorable. Due south off the Victoria ejecta, south through the drifts until they shrink to more manageable proportions, then east or southeast, passing a nice mid-size impact crater about half way to Endeavour.

Phil

just catching up

This is just FANTASTIC news. absolutly the best decision to explore new terrotory

A goal truely worthy and befitting our beloved Opportunity

maybe she'll see more of the interior of Victoria along the way

ken

Zis is zuper nuts! The distance from Victoria to Ithaca is shorter than the diameter of Ithaca itself! Poor Oppy will need to drive an additional 10km if she is to reach the floor of the crater. The size of Ithaca is so huge that exploring it will require traversing further distances than it took to get there!

So, has a pool started for Oppy's arrival date? I'll put in an overly optimistic guess of Sol 1812 (just so I can play the overture with some fireworks when the day comes).

C'mon Oppy, put dat hammer down an git-a-goin!

At least if we see any beacons, there won't be a debate over "near rim" or "far rim".

I believe Doug has said we've had enough of pools.

The HRSCview site lets you explore the (big crater) Endeavour from all directions...neat! This image is looking south.
(1st post )

Speaking of beacons, I foresee with great expectation the growing, sol after sol, of Endeavour's peaks in the rover's horizon...
Will it be possible to image the sun setting behind those hills?...
So many things to see yet...so many things to marvel us yet...


A bit off topic, or not, weird days this ones...weird but so pleasant ones...
Yesterday excitement brought by the perspective of a whole new quest for our beloved Oppy, today I've received a friend at home who I didn't saw for quite a while and he had a late birthday gift for me...guess what it was...a collection of Official Mars Exploration Rover Mission JFK Colorized Half Dollars...

This babies are sooo part of our lifes but they can still provide moments of true joy and unexpected surprises...if all relations were like this...

"Will it be possible to image the sun setting behind those hills?..."

Maybe later! Right now, it would be rising behind them.

Phil

Is there going to be a official press release about this? Or even a media teleconference...it's certainly news worthy of one.

Doug, as anticipated privately, I'm going to break out of my silent lurking. First of all let's make sure everyone understands I'm speaking for myself only, if my employer wants to speak they have their own channels and definitely I'm not one of them. That's what my signature says, and hopefully the meaning will be clear to everyone. Hopefully I won't get into trouble for posting here, I like my job and I'd like to keep it.

Speaking for myself, I did appreciate immensely the suggestions, comments and good ideas that I read on this forum. Besides keeping my morale high I picked up many good ideas from all of you. It is pretty amazing what you have been able to infer from the little information that has been released.

Is is time to hit the road. Once we extricate the rover from the current position (we tried to reach a pretty compelling science target knowing full well the likelihood of success was low) we will head for Endevour. I have seen some suggestions from you guys about paths to follow. While it is premature to analyze the terrain until we have HiRISE, I'd like to understand what was your line of reasoning behind the path, what data you used and how you made the assessment.

Paolo

Welcome, Paolo!! Good to have you here in person rather than in (lurking) spirit!

The rover driver on the forum asking us about the potential routes we've come up with! Now this is surreal.

Anyway, for this map I took a direct straight line route from Victoria to Endeavour (using a THEMIS mosaic assembled by slinted)and split it up into 'legs' determined by terrain type. I added a kink to get the rover to a moderate sized crater ('mini-Endurance') on the grounds that it would be a good window for the project scientists to check geological heterogeneity. I put the end of the journey at the hills of the western rim as the MGS hematite map seems to (maybe possibly) show a compositional difference at the visible rim of Endeavour (both west and east), although it's difficult to be certain.

Thinking about it, though, it might be better if I had put Leg A directly due east across Victoria's annulus rather than due south. That would make Leg B through the Etched Terrain more south-trending and reduce the number of times the rover would have to cross over the ripples.

You know you have one of the best jobs in the world, right?

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by,

All hail our Steersman on the Meridian Sea - Sea of Hematite!
Guiding Hand of our Quest - Pilot of our Voyager Dream! Hail!

We each have dreamed that we stood at the helm in your place.
We would oftimes steer for the shallows, where sulfate bedrock shows itself, in promise of firm footing.
If there is no choice but the billowing sands, then hasten we where the ripple depths are less - keep to the furrow and shun the crests!

For that we need appropriate commands to the wheels. Does Oppy have this inherent software for autonomous cruising in the furrow? Then sail on!
Does your experience show the safest angle to cross the crests when unavoidable? Is the distance between crests a measure of the safety in crossing them?
Does the darkness of the ripples from orbit correlate with softness or depth of the sand? Go toward the light!

SAIL ON, O SHIP of STATE!
(oops...political...ignore previous.)

What is surreal is a rover driver asking for directions

The thing is, the terrain is so vast, hazards potentially everywhere that I will take suggestions and "heads up" from all. On my end it is good because the more eyes I have the better it is. Yes, we do have many drivers and they do have the final saying, but as I said I have seen in the past some suggestions that clearly show you know your way around.

From your perspective, and as a separate attempt from Scott Maxwell's Mars 3.0, I want you to get a better taste of what it is to explore another planet. What tradeoffs you need to consider, what it means to come up with tricks to keep the rover going.

Unfortunately there will be instances where I will not be able to divulge or discuss some technical details which means certain decisions seem puzzling and contrary to common sense. Don't be alarmed and/or frustrated. Your trust in the MER team should not be diminished because I decided to start posting.

I do realize I have a great job. Not only I get to explore a planet, but I get to work with the finest minds I have ever met in my last 26 years of my engineering life. I wish you were part of all this, more than you already are, and if Scott is successful maybe you will.

Paolo

OK, now think what would be the easiest and safest route to Endevour if you did not have to stop for science. I'm not saying we will not, not saying we will either because I do not know at this time how many and where the stopovers are. Let's get the ball (wheels) rolling and get some ideas out. Don't flood me with PMs or e-mails , there is plenty of time to sit and think. Unless we find a way to flap the wings of Opportunity's deck it will take quite some time to go around Victoria. So far I heard we should drive CCW around Victoria and that part is already covered by HiRISE. How far from the rim would you keep the rover? Keep in mind that a couple of stops on the rim might be requested.

The reply is attached to this message but of course the question is for all of you. This is just an experiment, let's see what happens.

Paolo

There was mention how the upgraded rover software is one of the reasons they decided to even trying this incredible feat. Does anyone know if the software engineers are still on the rover team and if there are any plans to further upgrade the software?

I've looked at it from a trafficability standpoint on pre-HiRISE images, but assuming the darker, almost non-textured plains to the east-northeast of Victoria are analogous to the plains around Eagle and Endurance (which they resemble), it seems to me that a good route skirts along the northern border of the ripple fields that lie in the direct path to Endeavour, and then drops pretty much straight south to the north rim of the big crater.

Basically, head out north-northeast, go straight east along the flat ground north of the ripple fields, and then duck south when you're due north of the north rim of Endeavour. When the ground rises, you're there.

It keeps you out of the worst of the ripple fields for the entire trip, it brings you down onto a slightly more pronounced portion of Endeavour's rim than its northwest rim, which is almost entirely buried. It's a little more actual mileage, but stays on that flat, firm tarmac for almost the entire drive. I think that might be a good idea, especially if you have to drag a wheel. I have the nagging suspicion that if Oppy started dragging a wheel, it would never be able to safely cross a good-sized ripple again...

-the other Doug

That's what appears to be the quickest route to me as well. Fredk's map shows this general approach nicely, whether it is precisely the path to take or not. It will be interesting to see whether additional HiRISE imaging supports this as the quickest route. Whether it is the most scientifically rewarding route is, of course, another matter.

...I just now got home (almost literally!) from a week in Kin-cho, Okinawa with no Internet access and figure "ho-hum, only been a week, let's see what's shakin' on UMSF"...and I see this!!! WOW! WOW! WOW!

RD, thanks so much for posting & letting us look over your shoulder from the back seat...I am beyond pumped for this new adventure!!!

Wow! What a day in planetary exploration. Not only do we get an official announcement that many of our dreams of post-Vic exploration are about to come true, but we also learn that the exit route might take Opportunity past some parts of Victoria's rim that many have longed to see.

Could life get any better?

Then we hear from one of our favorite celebrities, an actual rover driver, who compliments the forum and all of its contributors for their ideas. Welcome, Paolo. We're happy to see you. It still is a bit surreal to me, but I'm comfortable with that. Wow! I can't wait to see what lies ahead...

Are we there yet?...

Dear Paolo, a pleasure to read you at UMSF...it just enforces my feeling, reinforced through this last years, that this place is, step by step, gathering the perfect crew to have a mission of its own...

Regarding your request for suggestions about a possible path to Endeavour, here's mine, not based in the nature of the terrain and safe driving but more on the scientific hotspots Oppy could find along the way making the journey more attractive...also, the average driving and distances are just guesses, two positive aspects, I believe Steve Squyres mentioned that the rover would be heading SE (is this correct?), and this path follows that course, another aspect, it is within the two years time frame that SS made reference to.

Welcome Paolo! It's a real pleasure to have you here at UMSF.

First of all let me take this opportunity (no pun) to say you and the whole MER Team thanks for this incredible and unforgettable experience. The whole mission of both rovers and the way in which it is/was made available for us to follow them since the beginning (and even *contribute*, wow!) is something that, IMO, has changed the perspective from which all of us could follow the exploration of the cosmos.

Second, and speaking of route planning, I haven't yet taken the time to look at the HiRISE pictures of the terrain ahead but in the first approach to plot a "hypotetical path" I will use the following guidelines:
- Drive E when moving on flat terrain
- Drive SE when moving by the dune fields. I'm here assuming these fields follow the general direction as the ones on the path from Erebus to Victoria.

I'm uncertain about this approach. Seems like avoiding those ripples in the etched terrain would add a lot of extra km onto the journey, which would also be a big risk. I guess it comes down to which option presents the least threat to the rover's continued mobility.

I've found Endeavour on some THEMIS images...

http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/browse/I10685008

http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/browse/I15290007

... and just wondering, does the ground drop away into a kind of shallow basin at the top there?

Click to view attachment

Could that be the ghostly rim of an older crater, obliterated by the formation of Endeavour?

Agreed. So, for safety puposes I think the rover should drive CCW around Victoria keeping the same distance as it did when travelling CCW to get back to Duck Bay when the initial recon was over. Once on the eastern side drive due east across the annulus until the increasingly large ripples begin to become a hazard. From there SSE using a 'stair-step' approach; following the trend of the ripples and using gaps/areas where the ripples have lower crests to cut east.

Looking at this HiRISE image the ripples diminish in size in the SE corner of the frame, this looks like a good point to move east.

Yeah, it's time for back-seat driving and here's yet another potential route.
It's not covering the whole way to Endeavour but only to a small Endurance-like crater mid-way between VC and Endeavour, named here "Mini-Endurance" by SFJCody. Instead of searching for a path from VC to ME I did the opposite; from Mini-Endurance to Victoria. The terrain around Mini-Endurance looks pretty easy and becomes more wavy closer to VC. I won't be afraid because, except for the part closer to VC after the annulus, the terrain is similar or smother than the one nearby Vicking and Voyager craters.
Click to view attachment

Here're some snapshots (HiRISE) of the waypoints and of Vicking/Voyager for comparision.
Mini-Endurance: Click to view attachment
M -1:Click to view attachment, M -2:Click to view attachment
M -3:Click to view attachment, M -4:Click to view attachment
M -5:Click to view attachment, M -6:Click to view attachment

Vicking & Voyager: Click to view attachment
Open this page and scroll down to the Vicking panorama to have a look to the kind of terrain we are talking about.

Good thinking. At this time it might be best if we concentrate on the area visible in this HiRISE image and then we will go from there. Correlating the new terrain with terrain we have driven on is exactly right. We (well, *I* do, unfortunately this is one of the the details I cannot talk about) have engineering telemetry and can determine how fast (meters per sol) we can drive. I was wondering if there was a way to automate terrain evaluation, I'm mostly worried about ripples. Maybe applying the FFT to patches of the greyscale image can tell us where the scary ripples are. Maybe some other texture filters?

I think that spending some time getting our tools ready to evaluate the new HiRISE images might be the best thing to do. It will help in the near term and it will make our life easier in the long run.

Paolo

Welcome, Paulo. It's a thrill to have a real driver acknowledge us noisy back-seat drivers!

Given the ease we've had so far driving on the anulus, I'd think we're basically "science-dominated", ie anywhere the science team decides to visit around the rim of Victoria should be easy to reach. There are some larger dunes on the eastern rim to keep an eye on, especially if the science team wants to do imaging from the rim (eg the "linear features" that've been discussed). Of course the less we advance the odometer the better.

As for the route to Endeavour, my post and route sketch from over a year ago was based on the principle of "avoid dunes whenever possible", and the hirise image PSP_001414_1780, and the hope that the tarmac continues east (I haven't seen hirise images further east). The "tarmac" to the NE appears to have the smallest dunes, but I agree that Tesheiner's route above (or a similar route that heads more directly east at first) looks not too bad, at least barring a wheel failure. A big question I have is what happens to our dune traversibility if we loose a wheel? Perhaps in that case you'd rather be on the tarmac to the NE.

It might appear that a "tarmac" route as I sketched would be longer than a more direct route to the SE, but tarmac means essentially straight drive segments, while dunes probably mean zig-zagging east when you can cross dunes, then south between dune crests, so the total distance may be much larger than the "crow flies" distance.

Perhaps there's going to have to be a mathematical expression for the "favorability", F, of a route. Greater total odometry would reduce F. Fewer and smaller dunes increase F. Better science en route increases F, especially since our arrival at the final destination is far from guaranteed! I would not like to try guess the form the expression for F would take, or how much weight to give the engineering versus science goals!

I wish you the best of luck as you embark on your greatest road trip yet!

I accidentally posted this in the other thread so I'll put it here too:

"Due south from Victoria is very feasible. The drifts never get as big as to the north, and after a few km they give way to surfaces nearly as smooth as the area near Endurance, but with more flat outcrops - this from the HiRISE image extending furthest south and east. So, south until the drifts disappear, and then southeast via the Endurance-like crater to the isolated hill on Endeavour's rim is very realistic.

Phil"


Looking at the way-points, the big drifts at M6 are exactly what you want to avoid, if long-distance/sol driving is the goal. The SE path from the annulus to M6 is quite bad for driving. But head due south off the southern rim of Victoria, and the N-S oriented drifts allow driving in that direction quite easily, and soon get smaller. Then the path can meander through the smaller drifts and outcrop areas quite easily until the mini-Endurance crater is reached. There the surface looks easy to drive on.

Phil

Dear Fredk, maybe I'm missing something here but isn't your path towards Endeavour pointing in the opposite direction, NE?
EDITED: Forget what I've written...just reread it and saw that heading NE was precisely your point...

Stu, about an older crater I don't know but I see three beautiful ones due South...maybe we should start our campaign right now to have things ready for when Oppy finishes her work at Endeavour...
Click to view attachment
Is any of these Miyamoto?...

EDITED: No it is not...

Sorry, Phil but I can't see it. Admittedly, I don't have the big JP2 files to look at* but from the smaller images, due south just looks like a route fraught with peril. The dunes seems very large, and oriented E-W so Oppy would have to cross them. Algorimancer had that area blocked off in his post from last year's discussion. Help me see what you're seeing, Phil.

* And if someone can give me a JP2 for Dummies lesson to help me view these pictures, it would be much appreciated.

In the HiRISE Online Image Viewer can you select an image to explore in full-resolution. They are labeled for faster find - btw. for PSP_001414_1780 what's the meaning of that "possible" - a typo?

FWIW, I agree with Phil. When I looked at the MRO image in full resolution way back (this was months and months ago), my conclusion was to to head straight south from Victoria until the drifts diminish. I think you have to look at the full image in full resolution, and compare it to similar images of ground we've already covered, to reach any conclusions at all. Although the route south might not be easy at first, I didn't see an easier route anywhere to the east at the time. I could be wrong, of course.