Might I humbly suggest this new thread, as Victoria looms large before us..?

GREAT images guys. I was out last night and have only just got online, to find Victoria opening up ahead of us... what a fantastic time!

I agree for this new thread since it'll last only what, 1?,2?,5?, 10? more sols

It will last 3 more sols before we discover Ustrax having a party in Victoria (abyss).

Why are you taking so long?...

(good ) question : Knowing the height of the cameras on the mast and the distance to the rim, what will be the distance from where we'll be sure to see the far rim?

Well - for that we'd need to know the height of the far rim w.r.t. the near rim

It'll work the other way around - once we see the far rim we'll know, from the distance to the near rim and height of the pancam mast - the height of the far rim :0

Doug

If I'm right, then going from everyone's excellent images so far these are POSSIBLY the features we'll see out across the crater when Oppy reaches the north rim...

Opposite features

Some suggested working names just to aid the pre-arrival discussion; as a non-geologist I'm keen to get some advice on what we're going to be looking at over yonder.

1. "Cleft"
2. "Tongue Outcrop"
3. north rim of "Sofi Crater" (as someone unofficially christened it in a lost-in-the-mists-of-time thread
4. "Mini Boat Ramp"
5. "The Streak"
6. "Overhang #1"
7. "Overhang #2"
8. "Shelf #1"
9. "Shelf Peak"
10. "Shelf #2"
11. "Overhang #3"
12. "Shelf #2 Peak"

Humour me, ok?

I used to think that the rim of this huge crater would be pushed up so much that Oppy would have a hard time even looking into Victoria. But, now I'm thinking that she'll easily be able to look inside wherever she wants.

The above picture corresponds to the South rim. You can recognize it easily by the small crater close to the mini-boat ramp.

Rodolfo

Yep, that's what I said... what we'll see opposite when Oppy reaches the north rim...

okay, I'll just talk to myself then...

Just "Are we there yet??" time killing speculation, but I'm wondering if the "streak" on my picture above ("5")might be the trail of a small dust devil? It seems to peter out before reaching the crater floor... or it might be, as my gut instincts tell me, material spilled and slipped down the crater wall, as there appears to be slumping at "4" on its upper end. Either way will be interesting to see if this feature is still there when we get our first look across the crater, as some time has passed between the image being taken and Oppy's arrival, and some dust must've moved around in there during that period.

Also wondering - as someone else has on another thread - if the bright "line" visible to the left of Pancam images of Victoria might be the raised rim of "Sofi" crater. If it is that would mean the taller, more detailed feature might be what I've called "Overhang #1". This looks like a good candidate for some detail in the crater wall, perhaps a crumbling outcrop or exposed blocks, perhaps..?

(testing)

Click to view attachment

This might spur on some discussion about farside features...

Thanks Stu, that helps and even more if Oppy make another move before the week-end

Looking at the new images at exploratorium I am not longer sure if we actually do see the opposite rim
and not the plains beyond ... (?)

And is the bright feature at the left side of this image the "true" beacon ?

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...23P0685R0M1.JPG

what exciting times !
this is a childhood dream come true: taking part as life spectator in the exploration of another planet

Nirgal, we do see the plains, but the very bright line that is now starting to appear at the right side of this image is the far rim.

Pando: Do you have any sol forecasts you would like to share? How long are we staying here?

And what was the purpose of yestersols short drive forward? No interesting targets in front of the IDD

I used to think the same. But considering the size of Victoria there should be enough spots that dip downward enough to see the far side.
Oppy will have no problem driving into Victoria either I think.

BTW, I'm getting nervous , how are you guys doing?

Nico

Yup.
It's heading is 90º which matches 100% with the MOC image.

Yes, there is

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...23P1151L0M1.JPG

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...23P1151R0M1.JPG

Click to view attachment

I think we'll see some very interesting detail over on the far side once we reach the northern edge...

Looks like normal end-of-drive-idd-deploy, not a specific intent to do IDD work.

I'm not CERTAIN - infact I'm guessing - but a complete Navcam 360 and drive direction imagery after a drive of only a few metres makes little sense to me. Perhaps the drive faulted out for some reason? It does seem odd otherwise.

I'll send some emails

Doug

I can only reply for myself, im expectant but the pulse are rock steady.
As for the rim, well the orbital images didnt show any really high rim around Victoria, so at least I didnt expect any. Bu the same images gave me the illusion that this crater had more steep slopes on the inside than it seems to have, though the final word about that is so close at hand that I patiently wait to see in just a few days.

Else from all that I can only echo Nirgal in saying that these rovers have made a life long dream finally came true for me.

Right, but without those images they would not be able to select any science target.
Usually the IDD work-volume is outside the navcams fov (unless they do specific imaging not driving related), and there were no fhaz pics from 931 until now.

Post drive FHAZ images are a normal thing though - penultimate, ultimate, and IDD deployed - and apart from the tracks (which we've basically done 90 metres back up the road ) I can't imagine there being much in the IDD work volume at this particular location. The rock on the left's a bit out of IDD reachability.

Who knows.

Doug

You're right Doug, the IDD is in the exact same position as other post-drive IDD deployments. Not sure what they're doing, but I believe some IDD work was in the plans before the drive to the rim...

I agree... and considering that we are going on the highest side of the rim, the view will de even more breathtaking! spectacular!
Hope they do not want to wait for the weekend before move to VC rim...

Yes, very likely, and i'm gonna be without computer access for a week from Saturday due to our annual student excursion Toulouse ('to loose') or not Toulouse, that is the question! - No, actually not
So I hope for some pretty pans etc. from you and the others when I get back on the 16th

Michael

some additional views; co-registered anaglyph for sol 931



3x vertical exaggeration



Nico

Michael, I live one hour away from Toulouse. If you think you're gona have time, send me a mail, may be we can meet and talk about Victoria's secrets

No doubt I can see far rim there; Just NO doubt

Are you sure? Not if the arm can do this.... :

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all...38P1111L0M1.JPG

and this:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all...CGP1111L0M1.JPG

Wow - OWW speaks fo himself at last
Yo bud thank you for the effort and diligence over 2 years, muchos gracias etc etc...

Fair enough - I'm just used to seing reachability maps that are a lot more conservative than those deployments..

http://anserver1.eprsl.wustl.edu/navigator...DL35C8P1201L0M1 for eg.

Doug

This pic just made me realize something... here we are on the Victoria annulus, and look at all the blueberries. Does that mean the apron and Victoria also were at the bottom of the sea that created the evaporate? I didn't think blueberries were that easily transported by wind... let alone be so evenly and thickly distributed as out on the duned plains. I guess I always thought Victoria was formed after the sea, otherwise, wouldn't it have been sedimented and filled in.

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...9FP2376L4M1.JPG

What are the limits on wind transportation on Mars? I realize that air pressure is low, but this is also a planet that has global dust storms?

Do you think that perhaps all those blocks of soft evaporitic ejecta from the Victoria impact could have contained berries before being eroded down to a relatively flat surface by the rim, leaving the 'berries' ?

That's what I've been thinking, too, Aldebaran. The fresh ejecta material was a pulverized mixture of the evaporite unit plus the (supposed) underlying basaltic unit, plus the melted rock present as the (apparent) "tektites" in the surface material. With time, the erodable evaporite fraction was removed leaving the hematite blueberries and the basaltic on the surface. Remember that we see two size categories of spherules and sand on the surface which form a desert pavement overlying a lighter-toned, evaporite-rich horizon, which represents the less-eroded ejecta mixture. I was surprised to see this many blueberries on the ejecta apron but it makes sense that we see them here as this process would naturally tend to concentrate the blueberries.

By way of one terrestrial example, when the bedrock in a humid climate is a cherty dolostone the residual surface material is a cherty clay soil with the dolostone a very few meters down. Unless you excavate a roadcut or look in a stream channel you don't see the bedrock.

--Bill

Click to view attachment

Anyone else think we're now actually seeing a "farside feature" here..? The one I called "Cleft"?

Wow. Good call.

Thanks, but can't claim it as my own, 100%; another poster called "youremi" highlighted it over on Mark Carey's forum before I had time to post my own thoughts here. I think it's right tho... which means as the metres are eaten away in the next few days we should see a ledge or shelf open up on the each side of that feature...

Yes, that's what I posted two days ago here. (I wish we had just one thread instead of two discussing the same thing).

Good thinking though, we're in perfect agreement here

(btw, in case you didn't know, I'm "youremi" in that other board)

Ah, sorry Pando, I must just have missed that post of yours... all the tracking between the two threads I must have gone right past it. Sincere apologies.

Hey no problem at all, don't worry about it. I'm glad you came to the same conclusion as I did and you posted your thoughts, it reinforces that we're both right on that.

Pando=youremi?!

Hey man can you count the times you've put me on the right tracks on those pre-historic days?...

Not me.

Click to view attachment

Well, if it IS "Cleft" we're glimpsing over VC's edge now, what might it look like when we can see it properly?

It looks to me (he says, pretending he knows what he's talking about! ) that the "notch" in this feature is an area of material that has, for some reason, either slumped down or been eaten away in part by some erosive process. The slumping option makes more sense to me, because I think there are hints of blocks of material below it, farther down into the crater where they've fallen or slid. I'm still wondering if the post-VC formation (if it was post-VC? I asked for input on that Q ages ago but no-one had any thoughts on the matter..) of nearby Sofi crater might have shaped this southern area of VC...?

If it is an erosive feature, then what has eroded it? Wind action? Just thinking aloud...

Whatever's going on here, I look forward to more detailed pics. I think we'll see some big blocks beneath "Cleft" and a lot of areological action around it.

Hey ustrax, yeah, that was really fun in the early days, we had a blast creating all those maps and getting our bearings straight with Spirit and the abyss, before the mapping pros showed up...

I like to see myself as a proud Cro-Magnon ancestor of those...

Stu, google "slope failure" and "mass wasting" for background info.

This "Cleft" feature might well be a slope failure or a slump or an incipient lansdslide. Usually these tend to be semi-circular or arcuate in shape, but this part of Mars seems to favor the polyagonal boundaries. It does mirror the shapes of the "scallops" around Victoria. Likely what is happening is that material is being wind-eroded from below the bluff, which removes the support from the overlying strata which fails and collapses. You can see a landslide at the toe of this slump.

Gravity is a cruel mistress.

--Bill

Click to view attachment

Been playing about with the best image we have of VC so far ( PIA08447 ) and some interesting features pop out at me and I wonder if anyone else agrees what they might be?

Down there on the south side of the crater floor there appears to be an area of boulders and material spilled from "up above", intruding on the dune field... Elsewhere there are other spills of material, with what look like some pretty big boulders, blocks or section of rim material too.

All of which lead me to believe that even if VC isn't the "pit" some are expecting, there will be a lot of interesting detail within to keep us all happy for the next few months!

P.S. Thanks Bill, saw your post when mine went "up". I'll google those terms you mentioned. I know you guys know all this stuff already but I'm discovering it for the first time, so please excuse my ignorance/enthusiasm.