relax I think we're all losing patience in certain ways...

Nico

If these evaporite "rocks" are like their earthly counterparts, I suspect the RAT eats through them like butter. It's one reason why Opportunity's RAT is still going strong compared to Spirit's now-blunt RAT over at Gusev which was chomping down on basalts from day one (or day 33 or whatever it was).

Which brings up a geology question. Is anyone aware of any aspect of the RAT that could be interpreted to estimate hardness? Perhaps the current draw on the motor while it's grinding? or a number of turns of the motor in relation to the depth of the cut? If so is there a table of acquired hardness values published somewhere?

Hey Toma B, relax, you have the best chance in winning the Pool!

I everything goes according to plan, they'll be there Friday/Saturday.

I never imagined we'd get commersial breaks in the exploration from Mars!
But this must be adverts for the Martian bluberry farmers right?

has anyone seen the new Global Surveyor Video. I think will will have to ingress on the south side.
http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/galler...nimation-B933R1
well just a thought anyway please let me know if I am sorta not correct.
Thanks

I watched it. It took kind of a while to download (~20 minutes). I didn't get the impression that I was seeing things well enough to know where there might be safe entrance points. I did get the impression that though this crater might be 70 meters deep, that we'll only see a small fraction of that in the way of reveal strata.

The rock(s) that they are grinding around Emma Dean may be the only hunks of that strata thaat they'll get to examine up close. Too bad they're so out of context that we'll never know how far down they're from.

Don't think so.
The status report ends on sol 935 making no reference to sol 936. I belive that "small drive" is actually the one she did on 936.

Cylindrical projection of "Emma Dean", Sol 934-935 false color:

In response to your question, I found this iinformation at the Athena/Cornell site: (http://athena.cornell.edu/pdf/tb_rat.pdf#search=%22Rock%20Abrasion%20tool%22)

“During the operation of the RAT, the rover will monitor currents, temperatures, and encoder readouts for all three RAT actuators. These data can be used to infer information about the strength properties of the rocks that have undergone grinding. A pre-flight test program is planned to establish some of the relationships among the parameters and rock strength, but this program will be limited in scope. …”

The abrasive surfaces on the RAT are diamond studded, so we know the hardness of the grinder. Perhaps there has been an effort to calibrate the grinding data with the martian rocks. I doubt that that information would be published, though, as it would be really only useful to the people operating the RAT.

It is a little disconcerting, I'm sure for anyone who cares about the rover missions, to watch Oppy just sit there essentially doing nothing (visible). It's certainly too bad that it didn't work out so that this time could be spent doing something productive, like an extended APXS or Mb. I hope whatever issues are being dealt with will be resolved before too long and we'll be on our merry way again, even if we need to investigate "Emma Dean" before moving on.

Cool. That's exactly what I was looking for. I guess that's part of the "data" that will wind up in a paper down the road. My guess is that with an identical model back on Earth one could establish some likely hardness figures based on these readings. I'm sure it will be a long time before anyone sends a rover with ten interchangeable Mohs hardness bits on it. Until then we'll have to settle for relative current and voltage readings in conjunction with image interpretations.

http://anserver1.eprsl.wustl.edu/navigator...DR0327D2512N0M1
http://anserver1.eprsl.wustl.edu/navigator...DR0327D2514N0M1
http://anserver1.eprsl.wustl.edu/navigator...DR0327D2513N0M1


It's there for all the brushings, gridings and other RAT workouts. I don't know of any pre-mission calib data being available - however one could certainly infer comparative hardness between the different rocks.

Doug

I agree, IMHO best entrance ramp is the large one close to Sofi (the 45m crater on the south rim); here I see the first very convenient mix of solar exposure, slope and tall outcrops to investigate... this means that Oppy needs to cover more than 1/3 of VC circonference (at least 800m) before the entry!

Anyway, returning to the video, here I identified some feaatures visible in the stretched Sol929 view (on the right I added also a slightly compressed version of my previous VC mosaic):
Click to view attachment
note, in particular, the dark streaks position on the two sides of the white crater, behind the far rim...

All this talk of impatience reminds me of a story I once heard...

Two bulls on a hill overlooking a nice herd of cows. Younger bull turns to the older and
wiser bull and says "Cool, let's run down and <make love> to a nice cow."

Older bull replies "Why not walk down slowly and do them all"

Heaven knows I am no young bull (by many Springs), but let us admit it: this would try the patience of Saint Patient - right now, I am despairing that we are ever going to see Victoria, excepting the imagery from the orbiters above.

If they're going to get there by Friday/Saturday as Pando is stating they really need to get to business here soon.

Still no grinding or APXS/MB/MI stuff has showed up at the PC site. They need at least a few days to do a grind and use the MI and the other spectrometers.

This part of the traverse is the first time we have crossed an ejecta blanket of a fresh Martian crater. We probably haven't look at enough closely.

--Bill

A bit off topic here but...

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mro/newsroom/pres.../20060912a.html

near the end of the piece it is mentioned that MRO will support surface missions.

I really never though MER would last to work with MRO, I daydreamed about it , but never thought it could happen (I guess like I thought Columbia hills would never be reached).

MER will not soon be forgotten in engineering circles.

Well if they were intending to do some grinding then they are in the wrong place again. (another aborted drive?) I'm pretty sure none of the rocks infront of Oppy now are grindable.

If Oppy is aborting its drives, one must ask why? The mission update offers no explanation. Do you see evidence of slippage?

Brian

Well we're not sure that RATing was on the cards are we? So maybe the last drive was OK - it just seems to me like quite an odd target to have driven too.

It is odd that the drive abort wasn't mentioned in the latest update, normally that kind of thing is included. You can infer it however as they say:


But then only remote sensing is done for several sols before Oppy moved again.

What I also find odd about the aborted drive is that Oppy still seemed to do the turn in place to line up for UHF passes. I was under the impression that when a drive aborted that was it, drive over, wait for further instuctions.

The drives that have been done look fine - it's not slippage and all the wheels seem to be working as normal.

I'll be interesting to see what is done on 938 - there is just more remote sensing on the tracking site at the moment (Ustrax will be pleased ) but maybe it's still a bit early?

Well, I was kind of hoping we would be seeing Victoria by my birthday, but that has come and gone, so I am getting on with my life. I guess it is not surprizing, considering the recent problems Opportunity has encountered while trying to do some pre-rim science along the way. I am guessing we are going to be here for a little while. "They" have already stated that an investigation of the material ejected from Victoria will be performed before making a mad dash to the rim, and it seems that that is exactly what they are going to do.

As far as I can guess from the images of Emma Dean, there is little or no ancient stratigraphy preserved in the walls of this crater, as it was in the walls of Beagle. At Beagle, as disrupted as it was, we did seem to see some continuity of bedrock horizons across the crater. I may be totally wrong about this, but I thought I could follow what I have been guessing is the textural horizon called the Mogollon contact across much of Beagle.

Here at Emma Dean I see no bedrock continuity at all. There is some continuity in more recent "soil" layers, but the multiple nearby impacts make that difficult to interpret, as those could have thrown material all over the place. The only thing I can suggest with a little bit of confidence is that this crater does appear to excavate a stratum that looks like Victoria ejecta, while the previous roadcut at Beagle may not have.

In spite of our desire to drive up to the Imax view, this may be a valuable stop along the way. I'll not ask you for patience, though.

Emma Dean - L257 - full/half/quarter resolutions.



James

Even more?...
...And may I ask why?...

Your Emma is just beautiful!

Right now, it's about 23:20pm (sol 937) at Meridiani and 02:00am at JPL (PDT).
If planning/sequencing of sol 938 activities is not finished yet there is still time (my guess ) to do it before the next uplink session.

We'll see.

Oops, sorry, I was confusing you with TomaB. I thought this was your post. That'll teach me for trusting my memory.

--

Tesheiner: If there was any more time to uplink then we'd have be out of restricted sols, right?

James

> If there was any more time to uplink then we'd have be out of restricted sols, right?

Not necessarily; new sequences to be executed during sol 938 might be uplinked after the rover wake-up at around 09:00 am.
What the rover team might have is still some additional time to *finish* anything that might be pending (e.g. approval?) before uplink; most if not all of the work to prepare sol 938 activities should have been done yesterday.
Otherwise, you are right: another "remote sensing" sol.

If they are having problems I think they should get to the rim of Victoria as soon as technically possible. It looks like we'll be spending at least two weeks in this spot, and every day spent here is a day less spent at Victoria. Is this Emma Dean crater scientificaly interesting? Yes, more so than Victoria? No. it's kind of like sniffing around on the floor for crumbs when the whole cake is sitting right in front of you. If the annulus around Victoria is interesting, a one sol drive out from the rim would be easy at some point during the investigation of the crater - im confused as to why they are dedicating so many days to this area.

They are systematic problems - not problems with the health of the vehicle. FAR FAR better to get through this difficult period of a week or two - get an understanding of the Victoria ejecta from the exposed rock around ED - and THEN move on to Victoria. Days are getting longer, terrain is very navigable.. the very fact that Victoria is only a sol or twos drive away is the reason why I think we can quite happily spend a few weeks here. We're not sniffing at crumbs instead of eating the cake... it's like inspecting the crust of the cake so that when we slice it open we understand the whole cake - and not just the filling

Doug

Happily?...

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/ustrax3/DMV.jpg

LOL

Oh my god... the tension...!

There's some reason why they're not going any closer, something's spooked them. I wonder if Oppy had a microphone onboard we'd now be hearing strange knocking or rasping sounds from over the edge... or maybe the sound of something heavy and metallic unscrewing from deep within the pit...

Joking apart, this is cruel, don't you think? They bring us all this way and then stop within one drive of the edge. I know there's probably a perfectly good scientific reason for this stall, but seriously guys, come on, stop tugging our strings and get to the edge okay? Yes, yes, we've seen Emma Dean now, very pretty, nice mosaics, but enough... just look over there Oppy, there's a great gaping hole!! Yes! There! Lift your head Oppy!

Edit: ustrax, you are a genius!

Top stuff Ustrax

Another perspective...

Victoria could well be the absolute highlight of several of the science teams entire careers - they've been waiting for an opportunity ( pun not intended ) like this for a decade or more. It would be impossible for anyone to be more excited by what Victoria might bring than those people - they're not going to be sat with their feet up in the SOWG meetings thinking "well.....I mean...it's only the deepest insight into the martian history we've ever seen and very probably THE panorama that the mission will be remembered for...whadda ya say...shall we hang around here 100 metres short for no good reason for a week?"

I don't think anyone wants to get there more quickly than the guys at Passadena and Ithaca. I dispair when I see people honestly suggesting that the scientists and engineers would waste a single second of the rovers time. If they are stopped for science, it is because they think it will teach us something important and give context to the science ahead. If they are stopped for engineering it is because they want to be sure we have the healthiest rover we can at any time. It is easy to get frustrated - but we only ever have snippets of information - and to start jumping to conclusions or expressing frustration at what the teams are doing is missplaced and inappropriate.

If you cant hack a fortnight at ED - god help us all when it comes to solar conjunction.

Doug

LOL

The funniest thing I've seen in ages. Great work Ustrax.

Don't despair Doug, I don't think for a second that anyone's seriously criticising the Rover teams, this is all just light-hearted backseat driving. We're all crammed in there, asking "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?", looking over Steve's and Jim's shoulders as they stare at the map looking for a safe place to park then go get burgers.

And you did mean that pun, admit it...

And we're not Ustrax... Yes!

Basicaly I can say that we've got two different "population" here.
JPL-Ithaca : I think the REALY REAL constrain is : get there BEFORE conjunction. This is disregarding the necessity as Doug point out to get to Victoria with an healthy vehicule, and to get the maximum context science from where we are.
USMF'ers : and we are not even on this aspect. Imagine, we are in restricted sols, we have people sitting in Europe with a time difference with Oppy of about 12 hours, while others, on the other side of the pond have different timing between each others and all these people don't know exactely what is going on and are surfing like mad to get an answer.
Only solution is to go with USTRAX and join the riot.
I must tell you guys, is hard to wait but it's much much nicer with all of you USMF'ers

Reminds me of this from the Sojourner days...

Click to view attachment

Arrival at Victoria and the likely quite spectacular views it's going to generate is the kind of thing that can remind the "general public" about the fact that the rovers are still alive and kicking and still making new discoveries.
However, with the shuttle currently in orbit, space-station construction and space-walks in full gear, that might steal at least some of the attention that arrival at Victoria could otherwise generate.
Honestly, I don't actually believe this is really a factor here, but who knows? Maybe it did slightly influence whether they should stay and take a longer look at Emma Dean, since doing so could possibly yield some new and interesting data and ensure not having to compete with shuttle & space-station updates on the space news front pages.

Click to view attachment

Since I'm one of "those" Beacon guys like you, I tell you, Stu : why did you use a near rimer STOP panel ?They put the STOP on the wrong side : it must face the cameras

Sorry climber, it was already on the cartoon!

And if it had happened five days ago, on the 6th, and announced to the "general public" on a way like this...:
"In the year 1522 Mankind accomplished the first successful world circumnavigation when a vessel bearing the name Victoria reached Seville, now, exactly 484 years after, Mankind reaches, through the Rover Opportunity, the Victoria Crater on Mars. Blablabla....Discoveries...blablabla...science...blablabla"

Call me a cynic, but I think a more likely target for potential conflict was the annual 9/11 remembrance. Let's face it,... in the US, momentous achievements will never be scheduled to happen on or around September 11th.

Brian

That's something I've been thinking too, aside from any science to understand the 'whole cake' as Doug said; better not get there around September 11...

Nico

Hell - Jon Stewart came back from holiday on 9/11 (and made appropriate humour from it ) - and infact you could get out the stars and stripes and go freedom, yadda yadda, big crater blah blah - it's one of those things you could pitch either way. 9/11 is a good day to announce good things, or a bad day to announce anything - depends what your take on it is.

However - I don't think either Atlantis nor 9/11 have affected planning. I think there probably is some pressure to get to the rim and get a full pan taken and downlinked before conjunction - so that during conjunction they can plan their next few moves - but purely because that would be a nice thing to have. I imagine they might have some press conf once that panorama is put together - and release the finished McMurdo pan and the first Vic pan at that time

Doug

You're right Doug. Aviation week had a top story on 9/11 saying that this very day was the start of Orion construction as well as the re-start of construction of the ISS.

Politics Alert woo woo woopolitics alertwoo woo woo

You're rigth paxdam I didn't though Aviation Week was running on politics! That main explain why they write about Airbus subsidies and not Boexxx what? Oups! Did I go back to politics?
At least we're safe for another 363 days

Well, I have another story to put here. I have observed the rims of Victoria crater from a 20 MBytes of movie. I have found another slope that is permissible to go down is on the West side, just in the front of Oppy.

Lately, the Oppy is getting late to VC's arrival. It is a combination of many factors that add up the delay: restricted soles, more IDD studies around Emma that is of a new kind surface since it is of a blanket, minor IDD problem with stowing and unstowing, problems with the DSN due to the congestion in competence for transmissions with the other new spacecraft MRO along with MGS and ODY. The other obstacle is that the uplink and downlink is getting longer time since Mars is about 389 Millions kilometers from Earth that the signal at light speed takes around 21:38 minutes and also the bit rate is lower when the Mars is closer to Earth. To many factors that sums up to the long delay. About the Sol superior conjunction, it is nearing fast, it is about 5 weeks away from now.

Then, my long time bet which was closed at around April is that the Oppy would arrive at VC in Sol 947. I seems that its arrival would be between the sol 941-943. I have no hurry to visit VC, then it is advisable no to go along with Ustrax's to perform a riot!

Rodolfo