Seriously, hasn't anyone else got any thoughts (dismissive or otherwise) on the "Have you briefed the President's Science Advisor?" (re MECA) question by C Covault? I am NOT going all woo-woo here, don't worry, I just thought it was an odd thing to ask... To my ears it sounded like C C was suggesting, subtly, to the panel that he had heard "something" about the MECA analysis and wanted them to comment. The question was brushed aside - rather uncomfortably I thought - and the discussion quickly moved on, but it seemed like a bit of a Moment to me. He actually began, if I remember correctly, by asking where the "MECA guys" were, asking if they had "been hidden under the table"... cue uncomfortable laughs from the panel...

Again, I have to stress, in case anyone thinks I'm 'suggesting' anything, I'm not getting all Muldur here, I was just struck by how out of the blue the question was, and wondered if anyone has any thoughts on it...

I've heard some very vague rumor to the effect that the MECA guys have found something interesting -- but that's all I know. The answer to Couvault's question (given by Michael Meyer -- the Headquarters guy, which was interesting in itself) was basically that the results so far have been "unexpected" and they are waiting for more TEGA results to say more. I'd sure like to know what it is they think they see -- but I am glad they are managing to keep their mouths shut until they get a confirmation of whatever it is from another instrument, or until they've done another measurement that tells them that whatever sensational idea they had in their heads was some kind of hiccup.

--Emily

A) My take on Craig Covault's question about MECA, and informing the President's Science advisor was that there may have been rumors of a major find in the MECA data that warranted notification to the top, but that the science team was playing very cool about it. This means that either i) there was no such find and the rumors were just that; or ii) there might have been a major find, but they are doing many checks, tests, and consideration of alternative explanations, and they weren't going to talk about it TODAY. I will be curious to see what CC puts in print in the next week or so. It was certainly a provocative question.

What I didn't hear asked or answered very well was what steps they plan to take to deal with the problem of soils with a high ice content (up to near pure ice) not wanting to exit the scoop. Among the many subquestions of this would be what kind of testing in near-martian environmental conditions (not counting 1/3g) was run in the development of the spacecraft. And, what kinds of approaches are they testing now both on Earth and on Mars to try to allow delivery of ice-rich soils to TEGA.

Perhaps those with contacts in the program can find out more about these issues??

I think that was more a reference to the difficult time the MECA team has been having and the bad rap they are getting publicly.

Thanks Emily, that's very interesting. I can't help thinking that once this "gets out" all sorts of wild theories will start floating about.

Something to keep an eye on, definitely.

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. Good answer.

Presidential advisor's eh??? All very mysterious !!

Alright... stupid question time. What difficulties have the MECA teams had? Only thing I remember reading was problems focusing the AFM.

As far as the mysterious question goes, all I can think of is that "Beagle 2" reference in the Transformers movie.

Thanks VERY much, Matt; I am now spun up!

Re Mr. Covault's enigmatic reply: My best guess still is a probable organic compound detection, which was a prime mission objective (that is, to determine whether they found any or not). Based on what little I know, doubt that TEGA is capable of more startling revelations.

To put it in perspective: Nobody's ever found organics on Mars, and conventional wisdom says that they are destroyed upon exposure to the surface UV and/or possible hyperoxides. On the other hand, organics are exceedingly common in the outer Solar System due to a lack of antagonistic environmental influences, but nobody makes a big deal about that fact.

So, detection of organic compounds on Mars would certainly be interesting (and amply fulfill a prime mission objective), but not completely unexpected at all, and not necessarily indicative of any need for any further extrapolations from anyone. Could well be carbonaceous meteoritic al a Allende material for all we know.

(Am I a buzzkill, or what? )

there haven't been any difficult times for MECA or bad raps. you may be thinking of TEGA. criticism of TEGA has been excessive in the popular press and some others. the science being attempted is not easy or straight forward. it will take time.

As I recall, the "question" by Covault was in reference to MECA, not TEGA. Also, Smith actually made a blunt statement that "no organic compounds have been detected yet", or words to that effect.

As far as the reference to the science advisor, I'd say that was clearly facetious, not at all meant to be serious.

Agree the MECA team has not had serious problems.

Craig Covault's comment took me completely by surprise. It came totally outta left field. He had to have some kind of basis for that weird question. (And the basis could be a totally false rumor). Or maybe it was an inside reporter-scientist joke. But jokes like that can make you lose credentials (respect from the team to take your questions seriously).

Craig

I put a notice of this in the MECA topic, but Covault's intriguing question in the briefing is prominent here:

Covault's article:

Aviation Week: White House Briefed On Potential For Mars Life



What could make the second sample more interesting on the issue of habitability than the first?

Thanks 01 (is it ok if I call you "01"? ) that's a very interesting read indeed. Sheds a little more light on that "huh? what?" question at last night's media conference.

There's an elephant right in the middle of the room now, isn't there..?

Hmm, the plot thickens...

Did they found indications some polar organic molecules from the soil dissolved in the water ?
They have to be polar to be water soluble, i.e. have -OH, -COOH, -NH2 functionalities.

However ... This begs the question what happened to the superoxides supposedly eating up the organics ?
I mentioned in the WCL thread that some scientists from the team claimed the alkaline pH is compatible with the presence of superoxides.

It sure will be a hot August this year

Can I call you by your decimal equivalent, "105"? (Cool username, BTW!)

One possibility that just occurred to me is that MECA may have found carbonates in abundance, though obviously they've been mixed rather well into the soil given that they haven't been detected from orbit.

Sometimes real life is sillier than what you can make up

Can any Americans out there give the rest of us some context here - what is the significance of briefing the Presidential Science Advisor's office? Does this happen often? Is the team obligated to do this under certain circumstances? Why do you think they would do this before going public? Etc etc...

Fred, to answer your question...no, it's not common (at least it's not common for such activity to be publicly announced). This accounts for most of the buzz.

AFAIK, there are no protocols for this per se. However, it would seem prudent for any Federal agency to brief the Executive Branch prior to making any potentially headline-grabbing or controversial announcements.

OSTP: Office of Science and Technology Policy



I guess if you were a government scientist or contractor, and were on the way toward making an announcement that might cause reporters to ask opinions of the current White House resident, you'd probably want to give the OSTP a heads-up in advance, so they could get some answers ready.

Lots of speculative posts in various threads. A bit of restraint is almost certainly called for - keep it sensible - and keep one eye on the forum rules ( especially regarding Politics )

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!

Oops, sorry... - Yes, restraint is certainly called for!

In the meantime, I suggest that MSL brings along plant seeds. We might as well start the terraforming asap.

Well, as I just mentioned to a noted forum member, I am fully prepared to be underwhelmed. Suggest that this might be a productive attitude to adopt.

my best guess

** methane **

the natural output of bacteria

Here's an MP3 clip of Craig Covault's question:

Phoenix press conf. question on MECA results (1MB mp3)

Doesn't seem to be much in the answer to justify the hype or the subsequent article. Drs. Smith and Meyer answered dispassionately that the analysis will take one or two months, that the two MECA samples are similar, that they've found the soil to be alkaline & contain salts, etc. The only possibly cryptic thing was some reference by Smith to some "signatures" that require further analysis before they can say anything, but isn't that always the case?

Don't get really worried until there's a press conference announced with representatives of the TEGA team, the MECA team, and the US Strategic Air Command.

We're clear, then. The Strategic Air Command (SAC) has been gone for more than a decade. Air Combat Command (ACC) is its successor.

EDIT: Oh, hell, now, wait a minute, stop this train! I just listened to Jim's excellent & very clear audio clip of the conference, and I think I get it now. Did not realize until now that Mr. Covault is a reporter for AW&ST, did not realize that he was the one who suggested briefing the White House Science Advisor, not any member of the Phoenix team!

The response to his question regarded ambigious signatures from the wet chem cells, which are not designed to detect organics or anything else controversial, really.

Move along, folks...nothing to see here. Dammit.

You don't get the feeling from the article (Aviation Week: White House Briefed On Potential For Mars Life) that Covault is in contact with others (purported to be) on the team, the "sources", that are indicating provocative results, habitability results, briefing of the science adviser, and saying the key is water/soil behavior?

I don't think this speculation, nor the article, is only about what happened at the briefing: what Covault asked and what the response was.

I would be extremely cautious about reading more into this than what actually was said at the press conference, though.

Let me put it this way: The Planetary Protection Protocols (PPP) allow a minimal amount of organic contamination even at the highest level (IIRC, something like 300 spores and/or bacteria per sq cm, and please somebody correct me if I'm wrong) because it is literally impossible to avoid it. So, in the worst (or best!)-case scenario, if somebody saw something 'swimming' in front of the optical microscope, it's still not possible to distinguish it from possible, even probable, terrestrial contamination.

Bottom line is that we're not gonna hear a positive announcement of what we'd all like to hear very much.

Gotta quote my high-school biology teacher again, who was passionately interested in the Vikings back in the day: "There is certainly life on Mars--now." (And actually well beforehand with booster impacts & the early Soviet probes.)

If you're referring to evidence of past or current life on Mars, the article says as much: that it's not about that.

Covault's article is about habitability. It's about provocative habitability results. Maybe his sources are wrong. Maybe not. Let's focus on what he wrote and what others know or think they know. But, I see no virtue in arbitrarily limiting it to the interaction at the press conference. Emily Lakdawalla spoke of hearing rumors about interesting MECA results. Maybe it's all rumor and no substance. Or not.

Gotta bet on the former, really. MECA's "habitability" detection abilities would seem to be confined to the wet chem experiment, so maybe they're just talking about finding carbon, phosphorus, etc.

I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop, for the general media to grab this story & go crazy. This concerns me, because the build-up & subsequent let-down sure don't help the scientific credibilty of UMSF, nor does it foster public support.

I think you should think in hexadecimal for the solution to the nickname. His avatar then makes sense too.

Edit: Sorry, I was slow on the uptake that you already got it. It has been a long week and I'm tired!!

Check out http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1297

"The White House has been alerted by NASA about plans to make an announcement soon on major new Phoenix lander discoveries concerning the "potential for life" on Mars, scientists tell Aviation Week & Space Technology...."

Hey, I had missed that.

Trouble is that this smart alec technique by Covault has already stirred up some expectations (and led to some some startling revelations on some of the more speculative forums). Dissatisfaction exists where outcomes don't meet expectations and I don't think Covault has done anyone any favours, particularly not the mission team.

Covault is a real professional who has earned some very deep connections. He has a rep. He's not going to throw it away on some silly speculation.

I also know he is really keen on Mars and loved his time "embedded" with the MER team. I suspect his perhaps mischievous question at the press conference might have been a little tweak, but how should one ask that question knowing now what Craig was preparing for publication? (Personally, I thought Smith slapped him down a bit during one of the earlier conferences - and it sure didn't look like he enjoyed this question.)

As for the White House - of course NASA doesn't want them to read about really great discoveries in the newspapers. I thought, in government, your masters are >always< in the loop. Griffin should know what's coming down the pike, no? He'd need to tell his boss, just like he got told by his subordinates. Naiveté?? Ho, Ho! (yes)

I'm betting the news will be better than expected from this mission. Maybe the best news from any Mars mission so far. I'll say a 4 on a scale from 0 (ruddy dead moonlike) to 10 (there is a fossil). Water is a 3, actual real life: 500. Make your own scale!

EDIT: and by 4 I mean Mars can support Earth life at a chemical level. Still thinking about 5-9...

Mmm...seems like a pretty good analysis from here, Paul. Didn't know how tight Mr. C. was with the JPL/Mars exploration community--but I'm gonna bet that those relations are a bit strained right now.

Gotta remember (which I didn't know near the beginning of this thread; thought we were talking TEGA) that MECA isn't designed for anything but physical and inorganic chemical studies. I am frankly confounded by the idea of any major discoveries that might have been made by this instrument suite with respect to (as stated) "habitability". Just can't see anything world-shaking. Did they find some compounds suitable for use by terrestrial plants? If so, interesting, but not worth the buzz.

I guess it's a nitrogen compound. Ammonia perhaps, which would explain why the soil is so basic. Nitrogen is one of the basic blocks of life. And ammonia is a fertilizer.

That sure sounds like a good guess, Pavel. AFAIK, we've never identified a nitrogen compound on Mars before, so scientifically and to the members of this community that would be big news indeed!

Very interesting point. I don't know how Av Week can be both bête noir and bible to the same community, but they seem to be.

So that's a 1 on your scale? For this mission, not finding any water would have been news, I think. Don't know what else but the chemistry is worth the buzz. (Of course they are doing science. This is knowledge. Just maybe not news.)

maybe they found an amino acid..

Or just an amine for you ammonia/nitrogen fans

just saying

Yeah, I'll sign off on that. My bet is that they found some interesting inorganic compounds (we always, always find something unexpected, after all...that's why we go!).

But...it's just another piece of the puzzle...not an epiphany. (Not to denigrate puzzle pieces at all; we need them badly.)

Of course, always happy to be proven wrong! Let's wait & see what they say.

Nitrogen was my thought as well. They specifically "called it out" as something that was missing from their first WCL analysis... though I also believe they said it would be really hard to detect if it were there.

Methane (as someone suggested) would really be provocative, wouldn't it?

After these two, my next best guess is they found the elusive chupacabra. Hey... it's gotta be somewhere!

One other point re: the press conference. Personally, I don't like being manipulated, and if the MECA guys had the real >potential< news, they should have been there and said we >think< there is Holy X! BUT we need to confirm it. Now that flies in the face of the saving your stuff for the big reveal and being risk averse, but at that press conference, that would have been honest (assuming of course that there is some big thing they know about and would warn the White House about). Save great news for later so it doesn't step on the toes of good news? That may very well be smart current practice, but it is PR.

EDIT: removed last gratuitous bit about NASA PR.

Hmm. Your comment kicked my brain, Jim.

How do N compounds form in our terrestrial experience? I am shamefully ignorant, but what I know is that nitrogen oxides are generated during high-energy events like lightning. The only other mechanism I personally know of is the "nitrogen fixing" process employed by symbiotic bacteria for legumes.

I know that there have to be many other pathways, but I just expended all the knowledge I have right there. If they've found N compounds, that certainly would be of major interest.

I think that's the wrong way to look at this story, to be honest. I actually think this is a perfect and excellent example of what UMSF does - i.e. takes a story into a bare room, locks the door, sits it in a hard chair, shines a lamp in its face and interrogates it until the truth comes out. It's taken just three pages to sift some nuggets of truth out of this story, thanks to great input from some very knowledgeable members, and now we're all a lot clearer about what's possibly going on. So I think this kind of thing - as was the case with that "pools of water found in Endurance Crater" story - actually enhances UMSF's scientific credibility. It shows we think for ourselves here, are open to debate and discussion, and let the science, not the spooks, do the talking.

As for fostering public support, this isn't that big a story "Out There" yet, but when it becomes one, as it will as rumours spread, we're all better placed now to put it into perspective.

So don't feel too concerned Nick, these are all good things, I think.

Ammonia was expected as a byproduct of the thruster plumes. IIRC it was not found (at least not in significant quantities in the initial analysis) in the first MECA WCL run. I'm pretty sure that was discussed in the press conference for the first WCL sample, but I can't seem to find the transcript. Of course that was very preliminary, but I'd expect them to be very cautious about claiming to have found native ammonia.

As to what the story is, I don't even have a guess.

No. No no no no no no no no no.

If it's in any way 'big' news - you have to sit your scientists down and make sure they've got it DAMN right before you tell anyone. Make sure the story is totaly solid, the data is checked, and rechecked, and that there's no chance of this being wrong.

You can't go 'We think we've found something amazing' and then 10 days later ' oops - sorry - calibration problem'. That's a massive embarassment for the team, and for NASA.

In private, after the press conf or by telephone. Not by raising a nightmare of almost certainly inappropriate speculation and hyperbole by being quite so smug and veiled. I like Craig, I like his articles, and I like the fact he'll take creations by people here and publish them. But I really don't like the way he's handled this. If nothing else, he's given us an admin headache.

I may be in a minority here (no change there then! ), but I think it was more mischevious and oportunistic than eevil. I mean, he's a journalist, he had a bit of juicy insider info, and he had a chance to personally ask mission scientists - at the first media Q&A for ages - about a story he was on to. He was kind of obliged to do that, cos that's his job, isn't it, to ask questions? He also gave the scientists a chance to comment on the story before publishing it, which is quite courteous isn't it?

And again, I think this is quite healthy for us here because it's allowed people - like me - who aren't fully up to speed on the hard science a chance to be educated about it by people who are, which is one of the reasons I love it here so much. I learn new things every day from people waaay more intelligent and experienced than myself, who I wouldn't have a hope in hell of communicating with any other way.

I agree. the way the question played out at the press conference, the way Smith and Meyer deadpanned and downplayed any results, would be a bit dishonest in retrospect if indeed it turns out they were sitting on some news that they even briefed the Office of Science and Technology (Marburger) about. So that casts doubt on the substance.

Stu, when I used the term UMSF before I wasn't talking about our forum, and your observations were right on; the folks here are absolute bloodhounds with PhDs when it comes to separating fact from fancy in all respects during times like this! I was actually referring to the planetary science community itself, which as we all know struggles for support & funding at all times.

Thus far at least, the wider media doesn't seem to have picked up on the story-to-be, which IMHO is good news. Speculation's run wild even within our little community, and I shudder to think of what might happen if the speculation goes wideband. As an example, here's a headline from the New Jersey Trentonian shortly after the ALH84001 announcement, verbatim:

"Mars Poop No Cause For Alarm"

(Nope; that's not a joke. Wish it was. )