You mean from Phoenix twittering from Mars? Bizarre, bizarre PAO response! Could very well be the right one.

imipak, aren't we s'posed to speculate? Like the thread says? I almost want to start a bingo card half populated with "nothing here" and half with >plausible<, non-wacko possibilities. Have a bit of fun with a really weird situation.

I maintain the Phoenix Facebook profile, and I've been getting quite a few messages and wall posts about it. I got an interesting one saying the goverment was full of ignorant people and only the "true" fans of Phoenix should know what was discussed...

*headdesk commences*

I think that they shut down the most controversial speculation amongst those of us that follow the mission closely rather effectively, but you've got a point. Hopefully there will be a press release soon that will at least set constraints on the possible finding in order to prevent widespread speculation that might lead to unrealistic expectations.

Ah! I take it back. Brilliant non-PAO response!

Hi aggie! Heck of a time for a first post, welcome aboard! Don't bang your head on that desk too hard and knock yourself out, got a sneaking suspicion you're going to be rather busy the next few weeks...

Indeed! I had made one for MER awhile ago as more a joke than anything, but then I was asked to make one for Phoenix, and now just about every mission has one! Kepler, Hubble, LRO, LCROSS, Aura, Glory, Webb, GLAST... the list goes on! It's a pretty good way to educate people in an informal way.

And I promise I won't hit too hard, I do go back to Tucson on Friday.

Here are a few thoughts that have percolated up for me in the hours since this story broke:

1. IF Covault is correct about the White House Science Office getting into the act, the news involves something [way] more important than discovering, say, nitrogen or carbon compounds.

2. Somebody needs to create a transcript of the the brief press conference segment involving Covault, in the absence of which, and based on several listenings, I would note that the Phoenix team had the opportunity to put the damper on Covault's speculation, and did not do so.

3. One could interpret the and demeanor of the Phoenix team at the press conference as that of a group of people sitting on something really big. The NASA chief (Meyers?) was literally stumbling out of the gate; Peter Smith acted like a robot scanning slowly left to right; and Boynton -- well, he blurted out what in theory was his big news right at the beginning, and then acted like a maniac for the rest of his segment -- yeah, I know these guys need to unwind and have their fun, but the witch hat was a bit over the top -- not even really that relevant or clever. So one interpretation would be that there is something really big going on just off stage.

Biggest discovery they could make on Mars would be petroleum . . .

There >will< have to be a more formal response to him than Phoenix twittering from Mars. He is a Senior Editor at a major publication with a strong hint of a blockbuster story. I just don't know what it should be in either case, if he's wrong or right.

Okay, you guys, c'mon!!!!

Tasp, unless petroleum reaches US $100,000 a barrel (at least!), it ain't gonna be worth it. Glenn, body language interpretation isn't the most reliable way to discern facts, and if they were squirming it's at least as likely that the explanation is that they were uncomfortable with the public attention. (The witch's hat was pretty funny, though; one thing that happens to people working hard & intensively for long hours is that everything can give you a case of the giggles--good to keep that in mind!)

Jeez. If they drank any tea during the presser, we'd be demanding the cups to read the leaves! Patience, patience...

Tasp, you're thinking alone the same lines as myself. With everything going on in the world, the discovery of nitrogen compounds on Mars would not, and should not, be on the President's radar. If we take at face value that this is about habitability and not life itself, here is another possibiliity: a much elevated level of detuerium or tritium isotoopes . . . I'm not saying I believe this, but it is the type of discovery -- along with hydrocarbons -- that WOULD merit the President's attention.

If (if if if if if) Covault got the story right, NASA/JPL/UA can maintain course by acknowledging that yes, they got some interesting readings and are going through the proper channels but no, they can't release them right now because they have to be re-checked and re-checked and undergo peer review. It can be a short but sweet news release.

If, in fact, none of this is happening then they should simply say that. Either way, it doesn't have to be a big production.

There is another aspect to this unfortunately crossed my mind, but it is a no-no on this board so I'll refrain. But when you think of 'science advisor to the president,' *some* people (not saying that I'm one of them) will take note of that for other reasons, so that's yet another reason why I think NASA should respond promptly.

Edit : Poor wording. I originally wrote "unfortunately is a no-no on this board," which is not what I meant. I agree with the policy.

Although Covault did seem to be directing his question to the absent MECA guys, and deuterium would be more a TEGA detectable . . . Still, I think the point is, what would be a really dynamite discovery in terms of habitability?

<ahem>...carbon and/or nitrogen compounds?

Really...Please consider the capabilities of the MECA suite, and the categorical denial that life has been detected.

We've talked about pH and compounds, but what about those superoxides that are supposed to destroy anything organic?

Can MECA detect the oxidation state of the soil?

Someone mentioned earlier that the alkaline soil is "consistent" with superoxides, but suppose they find that the soil doesn't have any. They would need to take another look at the Viking results.

Quick reminder of what the AWST piece actually says... this is, literally, all we have to go on for now...

Sources say the new data do not indicate the discovery of existing
or past life on Mars. Rather the data relate to habitability--the
"potential" for Mars to support life--at the Phoenix arctic landing
site, sources say.

Phoenix scientists have said from the start that neither the TEGA
organic chemistry lab nor the MECA wet chemistry system could detect
current or past life. MECA's two microscopes do, however, have the resolution to detect
bacteria--which would be life. Sources, however, say the microscopes
have not detected bacteria.

Your take makes sense.

When I worked on the government side at a space agency with scientists they often didn't have a clue how to behave in this suddenly bright spotlight. I think the witch's hat was, I don't want to say adorable or dorky in an adorable way (I have too much respect for him), but maybe "pure." They're all folks at base anyway, and not polished on the stage which might make it easy to misread body language.

Can MECA detect carbon and/or nitrogen compounds or would the TEGA mass spectrometer be necessary for this?
MECA may be much better suited for detecting carbonates. That would also be a big deal.

Oh, it's easy to get weird when you're totally beat. One time in Korea while trying to fix an F-4 for about 16 hours straight me & a co-worker saw a millipede trying desperately to traverse a puddle. We rescued it of course & sent it on its way, but laughed like hell about it for the next few hours till we were finally relieved, went home, slept, and came back the next day.

Probably doesn't make sense upon reading, and I can't even tell you what was funny. Anybody who's ever worked hours like this knows what I'm talking about, though.

AFAIK...yes. I am not an umimpeachable authority by any means, though.

I LOVED the hat thing, made the team seem much more human and approachable. I get sooo sick of seeing scientists being all dour and dry, just reciting facts and figures, it was really refreshing to see one of the team basically making a complete prat of himself and not caring!

Isn't speculation fun? And it's so easy, in the absence of information!

I'm tempted to start a list of possibilities, and see in a couple months if any are close to the truth...

1. Covault got it all wrong. Subdivides into (a) honest misunderstandings and [b] (bizzarely) intentional deception by someone on one side or the other.

2. Covault got the part about the presidential advisor wrong, but there appears to be an important potential discovery regarding habitability, apparently with MECA. Same subdivisions as 1 for the advisor part, but now there are also many more sub-subdivisions for the discovery possibilities. For example,
(i) a discovery that decreases the habitability, past or present
(ii) a discovery that increases the habitability, past or present
Obviously many sub-sub-subdivisions are possible here, a few of which have been discussed already, such as carbonates and nitrogen...

3. Covault got it all right. Same possibilities (i) and (ii).

Leonard David talks about a Phoenix paper for AAS/Science currently in peer review.. and more in "poop from the scoop" on his blog

Thanks, Paul...but it didn't say much, really, just more "what the hell?", and some possibly (in the future) unfortunate comparisons to the handling of the ALH84001 story.

C'mon, people. We know better than this. Gotta keep it tempered, is all.

I think Murphy's Law tends to apply with regard to spectacular discoveries regarding astrobiology, and I strongly suspect one or both of these to underlie the buzz:

1) The claim that the Executive Branch of the US Government has been contacted is somehow erroneous or misleading. Eg, if two individuals who happened to know each other communicated in their capacity as acquaintances rather than representing their official positions. Or it simply never took place at all.

2) "Habitability" may have NOTHING to do even with the potential for native martian life but instead pertain to "habitability" by future human crews. This is of more potential interest to the Administration, which has pushed for a program leading eventually to crews going to Mars. Eg, it could be as simple as the conclusion that this ice, melted, is easily made drinkable rather than toxic.

Well I thought the reference to a peer-reviewed AAAS/Science paper was a big deal...

You know, that's a good point... a really good point... I hadn't looked at it from that angle at all. If you read this...

Sources say the new data do not indicate the discovery of existing
or past life on Mars. Rather the data relate to habitability--the
"potential" for Mars to support life--at the Phoenix arctic landing
site, sources say.

...then the "Life" Mars has the potential to support could well be us, in the future.

Well...let's see if it makes it through review, and what it has to say.

"Habitability" is one thing, "Inhabited" is quite another. If this area of Mars could foster terrestrial bacterial growth, that would be an interesting finding. It's a long way from announcing life on Mars, though, and I personally think that perception management of this issue is job #1 for those of us interested & engaged enough to express informed opinions (which, actually, should be every single person registered here; ain't seen no dummies on UMSF, ever!)

Exactly! Go Martians! (wait a minute... that's manned spaceflight... nprev... what are you doing with that wrench... nooooo!!)

"Habitability" is one thing, "Inhabited" is quite another.

That's it. Right there. The bottom line. Nick, you just summed up the whole thing in 8 words. CC is very precise with language in his writing, no sloppiness. He's used that word very deliberately, I think.

Let's all take a deep breath now... been a busy day of speculat'n...

Seriously tho, what amazing events and adventures we're all witness to in these early years of the 21st century...!

...merely relocating it to a strategically advantageous location...why do you ask?

(Fear the Eltists!!!)

What's a "gulp" emoticon look like?...

If any mainstream media well-endowed with financial resources would like an informed comment from a UMSF member of long standing, I would certainly look favourably at any offer that might be forthcoming... *cue X-Files theme*...

J/k...

You didn't just plug yourself there because we've been Wired, did you?

High praise, sir, and I thank you very much!!!

The key finding implicit is if we find a habitable environment with no critters...why? Arguably, that would be as stunning, if not as exciting, as finding a menagerie. We don't know very much about the origins of life, much less its persistence over time. We are addressing core scientific issues when examining such findings, and the data is of fundamental importance.

Re Stu's post, this is from the Wired web site; check out the last paragraph . . .

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/08...s-abound-a.html

Rumors Abound About 'Potential for Life' on Mars
By Alexis Madrigal EmailAugust 03, 2008 | 12:12:11 PMCategories: Space

Soil_scoop Rumors are flying this weekend that Mars Phoenix has made a major discovery relating to the potential for life on Mars.

Wired.com reached Sam Kounaves, the mission's wet chemistry lab lead, by cell phone this morning. He quickly directed us to speak with NASA's PR representatives, but not before he said, simply, "Rumors are rumors."

They stem from an article in Aviation Week and subsequent pickup on Slashdot and elsewhere indicating that the White House had been briefed on the potential for life on the planet.

"The White House has been alerted by NASA about plans to make an announcement soon on major new Phoenix lander discoveries concerning the "potential for life" on Mars," wrote Craig Covault, citing anonymous sources on the Phoenix Lander's wet chemistry lab team.

Covault's article showed some restraint, though, and made sure to note that "sources say the new data do not indicate the discovery of existing or past life on Mars."

The subtleties, however, were quickly lost in the blogosphere, where excitement began to build that simple extraterrestrial life, or something suggesting its presence, had been found on Mars.

Late last night, @MarsPhoenix (aka Veronica McGregor, a NASA employee) responded to the story, via the mission's Twitter account.

"Heard about the recent news reports implying I may have found Martian life. Those reports are incorrect," she Tweeted. "Reports claiming there was a White House briefing are also untrue and incorrect."

Covault implies that a test in which Earth water was mixed with Martian soil is the cause of the excitement. Mars Phoenix scientists have repeatedly stated that the lander doesn't have the tools to directly detect life.

Over at LiveScience, David Leonard hints, without sourcing or attribution, that a paper on the work is going to come out in the journal Science.

"The reason that all this seems so hush-hush is due to a future paper and press release that appears likely to pop out of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) and its Science magazine," Leonard writes. "Whatever the poop is from the scoop that’s been studied by Phoenix, that information is purportedly going through peer-review."

We're still trying to get to the bottom of this story and will keep you updated with any new developments.

UPDATE 12:10pm: Check out the forum discussion taking place on unmannedspaceflight.com. There is a lot of commentary about how Covault did his reporting and what kinds of discoveries the Phoenix Lander's various instruments are capable of making. (Hat tip to NASA Watch's Keith Cowing for pointing them out.)

What kind of irony is that? Thanks Keith! Good on ya Mate.

What?? Are they suggesting that the twitter updates haven't been coming to us directly from Phoenix??

Hate to be the one to break it to ya, Big Guy, but...(Santa Claus & Easter Bunny revelations also omitted for bandwidth conservation, and hopefully Dan will still talk to me after such an ostentatious display of smartass-ism... )

According to Leonard David, the hush-hush is because they're trying to get whatever it is published by Science.

On the other hand, the Phoenix Twitter feed says no White House briefing has happened.

--Emily

Could that be a technicality? Like Marburger visited NASA HQ?

Well, all of this is certainly having an effect. I just took a peek at the current stats, and there are three members and 112 guests visiting the site right now. At 10:15pm CDT on a Sunday night.

-the other Doug

Peter Smith said on the conference that the Atomic Force Microscope is now ready to take measurements. The AFM is part of MECA.
I'd be interested to know how they tested the instrument, I mean, did they take actual photos or not?
I do not know when AFM was supposed to be working but I feel it's quite "late" into a 90 days mission.
If the "scoop" come from AFM, it'll be BIG news.

Indeed. And if the environment really is habitable (well benign) should it not be awash with organics from all those impactors?

The AFM has some sort of test surface, and I remember seeing the results of that. IIRC, there's been some difficulty with finding samples that are physically stable enough (i.e., not prone to movement during the examination) for it to examine.

I'm personally confident that the big whatever-it-is does not relate to the AFM.

A French website, Mars Actualité, has picked up the story - Phoenix : rumeur d'une découverte importante :



Looks like a good article, if only I knew French. Here's a link to the Babelfish translation:

Phoenix: rumour of an important discovery

It's a good article. Nice survey of the situation. Very weird in babblefish but it's close. Poch's sources are Av Week, UMSF,Leonard David and Emily so it's gloss - but good gloss.

It seems that Emily's emphasis on "past habitability" is reflected in a new twitter message:


This is slightly more specific than Covault's article. Or am I reading too much into this?

The AFM doesn't take photos per se. It uses microscopic needles to probe the target and then produces a 3D model of the surface. More than you'd ever care to know about the AFM is in the paper at http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/polar2006/pdf/8047.pdf