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Full Version: Final Vote Count For Far/Near Rim Beacon
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CosmicRocker
QUOTE (Shaka @ Jul 1 2006, 03:13 PM) *
Tom,
If you wait until we can read the inscription on the slab, like Horton, you'll miss the distinction of the 'good scientist' who revises his conclusions as soon as new evidence compels it. The 'rocket scientists' in the MER team have done that now - so they are 'good scientists' - better late than never. wink.gif Of course we never appeal to authority around here, so you should only change your view when the evidence convinces you, not the popular vote swing. Pando is a case in point - 'a good scientist' - right, Pando?

As far as I know only one person 'elected' me captain, ElkGroveDan, (and you know what they say about Californians! cool.gif ). I'm sure I wasn't the first Near-rimmer, Tesh or Rodolfo were probably in there long before their geometry and Dilo's charts of the unchanging 'image' of Beacon finally compelled me to get down from the fence. In fact I think Shirley or somebody put me on the Near list before I ever formally embraced it. (Pity that much of this early history of the beacon debate was lost with the Victoria on the Horizon thread that somehow got lost or corrupted on Doug's server.) I think "cheerleader" is probably a better description of my role in this debate than captain, but I do like to think that I am also 'on the squad'. biggrin.gif YAY, TEAM!! laugh.gif
Shaka, don't get me wrong. You appear to be on the Victorious team, and you chose your team correctly. My "cheerleader" comment only referred to the fact that you have been so verbose while your team's accurate kickers have put one right into the net. You have contributed materially to the discussion. It's just that the s/n ratio is somtimes low, imho, which is why I have previously called you enthusiastic. I bear you no ill will. Really...
ElkGroveDan
QUOTE (Shaka @ Jul 1 2006, 12:13 PM) *
(Pity that much of this early history of the beacon debate was lost with the Victoria on the Horizon thread that somehow got lost or corrupted on Doug's server.)

Come now, Shaka. Nothing is lost for those of us who love scientific investigation. Evidence is always there, you just have to find it. It's clear to me that Bobby went through the old thread chronologically and transcribed the positions as he encountered them. That would make lyford the captain of the near rim team. You fall in at #10. Though dare I say you'll all feel like #2 when this thing is finally settled ohmy.gif (along with the traitors on my side who left to beat traffic after the seven the inning mad.gif )
lyford
ElkGroveDan - I don't think there's anyway I was the first near rimmer - just ended up on the list that way. (Though I take credit for planting the seed for our team mascot....) I know marswiggle's work convinced me to join the near team, so I couldn't have been the first. I may have been the first near rimmer to chime in when Bobby started the official tally, but not in the course of the thread.

And as for signal to noise ratio, I know I am guilty of silly posts as well, but a thread like this seems made for fun. smile.gif
dilo
They just published new PanCam images with various filters. In particular, there is an incredibly sharp view through R1 (blue) filter that clearly show the true nature of the beacon, on the extreme left:
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...O9P2539R1M1.JPG
The same structure that appear bright-gray in other IR images is dark and clearly belongs to near rim (well, the true beacon still a small bright dot on top of it... wink.gif ). Here below a 5x vertical stretch of a rotated/noise-reducted detail:
Click to view attachment

If I correctly recall, they never used this filter to picture VC... now I wonder why!
jamescanvin
I was very surprised that there is still a bright beacon in the L7/R1 images (considering how dark the outcrop materal is at this wavelength) when I first saw that.

But just an (tantalizingly positioned) raw image artifact I guess.
Tesheiner
Yup, those are the first blue-filter pics from VC.
They have the advantage to "see" through the (red) dust, meaning clearer images, but the disadvantage of strongly reducing the contrast between the outcrops and the sand.

Have a look to the ejecta blanket. Do you see any kind of texture on it indicating the sort of terrain it's made of? I don't.
djellison
Using the R1/R2 stuff - dragging out some more details.

Doug
ustrax
QUOTE (Shaka @ Jul 1 2006, 09:13 PM) *
YAY, TEAM!! laugh.gif


'Boy, you guys have gotten pretty serious about this! smile.gif'

Steve's reaction on facing the glorious NRU badge...Now...How can we keep on looking serious when people start talking about cheerleaders?!... mad.gif
tongue.gif

And Shaka...Got an answer for your doubts:

'...We're writing a paper about Home Plate right now that I hope
to have submitted within the next month or two.'


And about an eventual return to the place

'It's a good possibility. We've definitely got unfinished business at Home
Plate, and it's not far away.'



EDITED: Ooops!...Forgot something... rolleyes.gif
Tesheiner
QUOTE (dilo @ Jul 3 2006, 08:02 AM) *
They just published new PanCam images with various filters. In particular, there is an incredibly sharp view through R1 (blue) filter that clearly show the true nature of the beacon, on the extreme left:
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...O9P2539R1M1.JPG


Mmm, I think that's not exactly the beacon.
This first images are L2 pancams from the "drive-direction" sequence taken on sol 864. The "beacon" is to the left of BC's rim and new features at the rim can be seen near BC's right side.



Now, last pancams (from "austin" sequence taken on sol 867, here below in L2 and L7) referred by you are focused on the right side of BC placing the beacon outside the fov, to the left of the shot.

L2: L7:

Truly, those are outcrops at VC's rim but they are different ones.
chris
Perhaps we have been seeing different beacons, and both the near and the far team will win. In that case, only the fence sitters lose smile.gif

Chris
djellison
QUOTE (chris @ Jul 3 2006, 03:58 PM) *
In that case, only the fence sitters lose smile.gif


Fence Sitting could be considered a "Neither / Both" option, thus we'd win biggrin.gif

QUICK - someone make a Fence Sitting mascott icon logo thing...we could WIN


On second thoughts..

wink.gif

Doug
Tesheiner
QUOTE (chris @ Jul 3 2006, 04:58 PM) *
Perhaps we have been seeing different beacons...


Don't think so.
Track all times the beacon has been visible, specially the last ones (e.g. sol 855), and the dark features around it and you'll see it corresponds to the left bright spot on current site images.
Shaka
QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Jul 3 2006, 03:14 AM) *
Mmm, I think that's not exactly the beacon.

Truly, those are outcrops at VC's rim but they are different ones.

I agree, Tesh. The L2 frame shows only the extreme west side of BC's rim. The Beacon is behind the east rim now.
Shaka
QUOTE (ustrax @ Jul 2 2006, 11:54 PM) *
'Boy, you guys have gotten pretty serious about this! smile.gif'
Steve's reaction on facing the glorious NRU badge...Now...How can we keep on looking serious when people start talking about cheerleaders?!... mad.gif
tongue.gif

Ustrax, amigo (glad to see you back from dancing in the streets), any hope of us being taken seriously where the beacon is concerned vanished months ago. wink.gif

QUOTE
And Shaka...Got an answer for your doubts:

'...We're writing a paper about Home Plate right now that I hope
to have submitted within the next month or two.'

Now that's what I'm talkin about! That news makes me glad you're cheeky enough to make SS your 'penpal'. That's a paper we'll all be longing to see.

QUOTE
And about an eventual return to the place
'It's a good possibility. We've definitely got unfinished business at Home
Plate, and it's not far away.'

Yeah...sigh...but I'll always wonder what we might have found on McCool Hill.

QUOTE
EDITED: Ooops!..Forgot something... rolleyes.gif

If Portugal wins and you die of happiness, Us, we'll ask Steve to put your ashes on MSL for scattering over El Dorado. cool.gif
ustrax
QUOTE (Shaka @ Jul 3 2006, 08:10 PM) *
If Portugal wins and you die of happiness, Us, we'll ask Steve to put your ashes on MSL for scattering over El Dorado. cool.gif


Now THAT would be something... smile.gif
Shaka
QUOTE (djellison @ Jul 3 2006, 05:16 AM) *
Fence Sitting could be considered a "Neither / Both" option, thus we'd win biggrin.gif

QUICK - someone make a Fence Sitting mascott icon logo thing...we could WIN
On second thoughts..

wink.gif

Doug

Your wish is my command, El Jefe!
Click to view attachment

or perhaps:Click to view attachment
bergadder
QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Jul 3 2006, 12:08 PM) *
Don't think so.
Track all times the beacon has been visible, specially the last ones (e.g. sol 855), and the dark features around it and you'll see it corresponds to the left bright spot on current site images.

So is the case of the Beacon closed, or do we have more than one case open now?

The R5 image shows a clear gap in the near rim, or is that two gaps?
CosmicRocker
QUOTE (Shaka @ Jul 3 2006, 02:10 PM) *
...
Now that's what I'm talkin about! ...
Wow! It never occurred to me to ask ustrax to relay a message. You found us a pipeline telegraph to the man. smile.gif I'll need to be careful to not abuse the resource.
Tesheiner
QUOTE (ustrax @ Jul 3 2006, 11:54 AM) *
EDITED: Ooops!...Forgot something... rolleyes.gif


Hope you do better then us...

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
ustrax
We already did... rolleyes.gif
Aldebaran
Have you seen this article yet?

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/Victoria_...tunity_999.html
Tesheiner
They are repeating what was already stated by NASA/JPL about one week ago.
Marz
Some more detailed views of the annulus are in the sol 883 pancams:
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...G2P2449L2M1.JPG

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...G2P2449L2M1.JPG

May I present the olive branch that both near & far rimmers could be right? rolleyes.gif
DFinfrock
QUOTE (Marz @ Jul 19 2006, 10:04 PM) *
May I present the olive branch that both near & far rimmers could be right? rolleyes.gif

This isn't soccer. It can't end in a tie. We want a winner!

David
jamescanvin
QUOTE (Marz @ Jul 20 2006, 08:04 AM) *
Some more detailed views of the annulus are in the sol 883 pancams:


Note that Victoria isn't even in your second image - that's one of the small craters south of us.

That's still all near rim in the first I'd wager.

James
fredk
The nearrimmers won this one, fair and square (as the bigwigs at jpl now agree!). A triumph of geometry. smile.gif

This battle is done. But if anyone finds a couple more curious pixels to argue about, bring it on! biggrin.gif
algorimancer
QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Jul 19 2006, 07:48 PM) *
Note that Victoria isn't even in your second image - that's one of the small craters south of us.

That's still all near rim in the first I'd wager.

James


Actually the brighter horizon features are associated with the "entry" region of Victoria. It is still a bit up in the air whether the bright features are near rim or far rim, I think. Could be both smile.gif
jamescanvin
QUOTE (algorimancer @ Jul 20 2006, 11:33 PM) *
Actually the brighter horizon features are associated with the "entry" region of Victoria. It is still a bit up in the air whether the bright features are near rim or far rim, I think. Could be both smile.gif


In the first image yes, the second shows Delta.
Bobby
Ok everyone. It's time to settle the beacon vote and declare a winner. Which object as we see it is Beacon and is it the Far/Near Rim?
djellison
QUOTE (Bobby @ Aug 24 2006, 10:09 AM) *
Which object as we see it is Beacon


You won't get a straight answer to that. It's near impossible to tell. People will be for ever saying "no no, I meant THAT pixel 100 sols ago...not THAT pixel".

I warned you all that the debate would stop being 'is that near or far rim' and change into 'but we were not looking at THAT we were looking at THIS'

rolleyes.gif

Doug
Tesheiner
For the time being nobody gave such kind of answer, Doug. unsure.gif
BrianL
QUOTE (djellison @ Aug 24 2006, 04:28 AM) *
You won't get a straight answer to that. It's near impossible to tell. People will be for ever saying "no no, I meant THAT pixel 100 sols ago...not THAT pixel".


In a perfect world designed to accomplish nothing except settle the beacon debate, the rover drivers would have made the decision to head straight for it, always keeping it in view, so that we could pull up to that point on the rim and see what exactly was causing the effect.

It seems unlikely now that they will head for that point on the rim, unless they decide that is a good spot to determine the slope of the proposed entry ramp. Once we get to the rim though, we will have a better sense of the crater topography. We can see what is at that point on the rim, we can see what is on the far rim and whether the far rim is indeed sunken compared to the near rim. Hopefully, what we see will be conclusive and we can all shake hands after a well played match and head off for a pint. biggrin.gif

Brian
clt510
QUOTE (BrianL @ Aug 24 2006, 07:08 AM) *
In a perfect world designed to accomplish nothing except settle the beacon debate, the rover drivers would have made the decision to head straight for it, always keeping it in view, so that we could pull up to that point on the rim and see what exactly was causing the effect.


Actually, it seems to me like the near-rimmers have a pretty firm hypothesis that should be testable.

They are claiming based on trig the existence of a promontory or other similar feature at the ``beacon'' position on Tesheiner's map. If we can identify a unique feature at that position when we get close enough to get a detailed image of the northern rim, then they would have been proven right, otherwise wrong.

If there is no near rim feature at the ``beacon'', then to me the most likely solution is a gap in the near rim through which we are seeing different features on the far rim as the rover shifted positions over time.
centsworth_II
QUOTE (Bobby @ Aug 24 2006, 05:09 AM) *
Ok everyone. It's time to settle the beacon vote and declare a winner.

It's not looking that way to me. tongue.gif
gregp1962
As much as I follow this forum, I never really got into the near/rim debate regarding the beacon. (Kind of like Switzerland, I remained neutral) Did we decide that the beacon is on the rear rim? Is it the small precipice or rock cliff off to the left in the pictures taken at about 50m from the rim?
climber
QUOTE (djellison @ Aug 24 2006, 11:28 AM) *
You won't get a straight answer to that. It's near impossible to tell. People will be for ever saying "no no, I meant THAT pixel 100 sols ago...not THAT pixel".

I warned you all that the debate would stop being 'is that near or far rim' and change into 'but we were not looking at THAT we were looking at THIS'

rolleyes.gif

Doug

Which crater are we talking about ? wink.gif
fredk
Yes, Greg, that's it. You can see it labeled on Tesheiner's route map too.
RNeuhaus
The beacon or promontory is on the Near rim. You can see the following picture. It is on the leftmost side of the picture. http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...00P2382R2M1.JPG

Rodolfo
Shaka
QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Sep 24 2006, 02:53 AM) *
The beacon or promontory is on the Near rim. You can see the following picture. It is on the leftmost side of the picture.

Yes, Rod, but we need to remember that we are seeing it now from a roughly 90 degree counterclockwise location compared to where we were seeing it from far to the north, months ago. The evaporite edge that constituted the Beacon back in May, may be around the lefthand end of the 'bluff', not visible from here. I hope we venture around that way so that we can roll right up and touch the original beacon surface. (and 'take a picture' of our Superduck mascot standing proudly atop it. cool.gif
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