It landed a few minutes earlier than planned, did the drogue parachute deploy? I couldn't see anything on the video feed.

I had the same reaction. Now they are saying something about the timing of the main chute release. So I wonder if the timing of EDL events was off.....

Wouldnt be the first time - Galileo's g-switches miswired, and of course Genesis' g-switches inverted and no chute deploy (at UTTR)

oh, Now NASA saying main parachute deployed at 20,000 feet instead on 5,000.

At least it made a soft landing.

SRC detected.

Confirmation of no unexploded ordinance.
Confirmation of no outgassing of toxic chemicals.
And confirmation of no breach!

A NASA commentator on the livestream said that the capsule was autonomous and decided to open the parachute at a higher altitude because it had already had the required deceleration for this to succeed.

Hmm. Not sure I understand this. Neither the press kit, nor the papers I've seen on the mission go into the chute deployment logic, but I can speculate given my experience of this problem on previous missions.

Usually the simple logic (to deploy a drogue chute in the Mach Number/Dynamic Pressure parameters for which it is qualified - for blunt capsules like this, usually this is at about Mach 1.4 to avoid the transonic regime where the capsule itself is unstable) is to observe the acceleration, and trigger a fixed time after a downgoing g-threshold. Sometimes there is an arm/fire combination of two thresholds, or an adjustable time delay depending on the g-history.

Drogue deploys, inflates, stabilizes capsule and slows it down. Then (for Earth returns, Dragonfly descent) there will be a prolonged drogue descent phase, at a high-ish terminal velocity, but nice and stable.

Then (either based on a timer, or sometimes a pressure trigger) the bridle to the drogue is severed and the drogue pulls off a bag allowing the main to deploy. Main deploys, slowing capsule down to a lower terminal velocity for landing.

Most capsules then just hit the deck (Soyuz triggers retrorockets just prior to contact). Usually parachutes remain attached - interestingly O-REx has a parachute release triggered at impact to avoid being dragged across the desert.

Typically there is a back-up timer to trigger drogue deployment, to defend against a failed accelerometer or g-switch (Not that these things fail often as far as I can tell, although the Galileo g-switches were miswired so that the timing of the two threshold-crossings was messed up and so the chute was deployed late. I guess Genesis did not have a backup timer - since its g-switches were installed upside down, the threshold trigger signal was never generated).

Depending on the entry condition, aerodynamic and atmospheric uncertainties, drogue deployment via timer will likely be outside the qualified envelope (e.g. too low q or Mach, and/or after the capsule has encountered conditions of poor stability). So the drogue is being used out of warranty, but better to try deploying than not.

What I am curious about is the logic for the main deploy on O-REx. Maybe that was set on a timer to go basically at the same time as the drogue backup timer (i.e. things have all gone to crap anyway, this may result in deploying the main early, but we dont know what the conditions really are anyway so might as well).

The commentator remark suggests the capsule was smarter than that, i.e. had a velocity trigger where the deceleration is integrated with time. Perhaps there is an instantaneous threshold for drogue deploy (that was somehow never triggered) and this velocity trigger fired both drogue deploy and release (main deploy) near together (late for drogue, early for main). Or perhaps the drogue deploy conditions were detected, and the drogue mortar fired, but somehow the drogue did not inflate (or shredded upon inflation, as e.g. Pioneer Venus' original parachutes did in Earth testing). But I am struggling to think if this was the case, what would lead the capsule to deploy the main *early*.......

(There is a logic on the Soyuz capsules that looks at a pressure sensor, and if the pressure changes too rapidly after the drogue deploy event, it decides the drogue didnt work right and deploys the backup drogue, but that's not quite the same).

Anyway, I dont have any inside knowledge on this one, and details clearly will take some time to emerge, but I think there was an interesting chain of events here and thought it useful to post some background. Here something apparently didnt work right, but thankfully things either just miraculously worked out, or carefully-thought-out backup strategies came into play successfully. Doubtless will be the trigger for lots of review board questions on DAVINCI and Dragonfly moving forward.....

Ralph

We've had entries into Mars in the past where the atmospheric conditions were not as expected, but it seems there would be little excuse for inadequate knowledge of atmospheric conditions on Earth!



I sorely wish that that had been true for me the one time that I tried skydiving! (It was windier than expected. Ouch!)

At the pre-return press conference, it was mentioned that there was a 3 g sensor that starts a timer which then governs drogue and main chute deployment.

Was there a plan to show the landing from the ground ? I though it was a bit of an anti-climax seeing the b/w IR landing pics.

From the news conference it sounds like they landed about 5 miles outside the landing ellipse.

Still, the tracking and calculations are astoundingly accurate.
Remember, this re-entry was purely ballistic without any steering.

--Bill

The issue was the main chute opened at 20,000 ft instead of the planned 5000 ft. That's going to change landing point quite a lot, right ?

5 miles from the center….still well within the ellipse itself.

Nominally, no. By the time the main chute is deployed, the capsule is descending vertically, relative to the air.
so unless there is a 'preferred' wind direction, the nominal landing point wouldnt move much, but the time for (assumed random) winds would increase.
Hence the predicted ellipse would grow in size, but its center would not move.

If you know the prevailing wind (e.g. as we do on Titan), then a prolonged descent does move the ellipse center downwind.

I did come across mention of a pressure sensor for triggering the main (which would make sense, much more accurate to get the desired altitude than a timer started from a deceleration trigger). https://spaceflight101.com/osiris-rex/osiri...return-capsule/

There is one (admittedly ad hoc) scenario that would fit with the apparently early main deploy. IF said pressure sensor works on a tapping (orifice) on the backshell (which would be logical, to avoid penetrating the heatshield and to minimize the dynamic pressure component), AND IF the drogue parachute somehow failed to deploy correctly and did not provide significant retardation or stabilization, THEN the capsule would descend (from 100,000ft drogue altitude) quicker than planned, and may have been tumbling. Tumbling could result in the pressure sensing aperture facing temporarily forwards, applying the dynamic pressure of descent to the sensor in addition to the static (ambient) pressure (i.e. it would measure higher pressure than ambient, making it think it was at lower altitude). That's one way (basically the only way I can think of) of getting an early main deployment. I havent worked out if an unretarded initial descent, with a prolonged descent on main, can fit with the observed timeline.

The main deploy is by severing the bridle to the drogue, and allowing the drogue to pull out the main in a bag from its canister. One has to appeal to particular drogue/line characteristics to provide little enough drag to permit tumbling, but enough to pull out the main.

Maybe none of this happened and everything went fine and there is just some confusion in the public statements. We'll find out in due course.

Ralph

ADMIN NOTE: New thread established for OSIRIS-APEX follow-on mission here.

This topic retitled to encompass sample analysis and prime mission conclusion.

When Hayabusa 1 returned its sample it was not as large as had been hoped for. When people looked into the sample chamber there was very little dust. As it turned out the majority of the sample was recovered by turning the capsule upside down and hitting it to dislodge dust hiding within the capsule. What I wonder is whether there are any plans to turn the probe upside down to dislocate dust hiding within its structure? Also more realistically I hope that there is a plan to recover the black dust that fell out of the capsule when it was opened?

There wasn't expected to be any sample at all as the mechanism to induce a sample into the capsule never activated on the spacecraft during sampling. It's also a very very different sample collection mechanism, and a very different sample container.

There's extensive video of some of the preparation and rehearsal for sample processing here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kolmuSXFSw

I've been unable to find what day they will open capsule?

Today
https://blogs.nasa.gov/osiris-rex/2023/09/2...lid-is-removed/

(Editing the URL gets you the full res version of the image included in the article https://blogs.nasa.gov/osiris-rex/wp-conten...2023e054550.jpg )

Some details on next steps here:
https://blogs.nasa.gov/osiris-rex/2023/09/2...lid-is-removed/

I'm a bit surprised that the TAGSAM "strainer" looks so "clean" (no dark dust or pebbles visible) and nothing sticks out of these holes... Everything is probably inside (apart from the mentioned dust on the cover)...

I wonder if static electricity had any significant role in determining where dust did and didn't end up. That can have quite a visible effect, but I have no intuition whatsoever as to whether that could have occurred here.

Nice. But now I want a livestream from the cameras looking in from the near-upper-left and far-upper-right.

Image found on FCS (French space forum). I don’t know the original origin

https://i.servimg.com/u/f48/19/39/35/83/image773.jpg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gsfc/53216584...77720310727975/

NASA Goddard Space Flight CenterFollowing▾
OSIRIS-REx_Canister_Open_
A view inside a glass and stainless steel glovebox containing the OSIRIS-REx asteroid sample return canister.

Photo credit: Dante Lauretta

Thanks Ron,

Yes, of course, and also the black dust...

Well, now it looks correct - it's obvious that it came back from another, dark world

enhanced with Dust-O-Vision
Click to view attachment

Again I am confused, is the dust we see the main sample ?

No, my understanding is the main sample compartment is yet to be opened... I believe this is bonus dust material inside the craft based on all the mechanics of grabbing and stowing the main sample in the "amazing grab" we saw in a near zero-G environment

No, my understanding is the main sample compartment is yet to be opened... I believe this is bonus dust material inside the craft based on all the mechanics of grabbing and stowing the main sample in the "amazing grab" we saw in a near zero-G environment

One consideration is that the sample was subjected to ~30gs during re-entry. Any friable pebbles that were captured might have been crushed by the g forces, though hopefully not. So there may be more dust and fewer pebbles in the sample than before re-entry.

John

Is the sample amount collected more or less the anticipated?

Let's see what they say at the press conference, but for now, an update from the blog.

Some good dust accumulation for once.

I've been wondering how they'll collect it. Seems like a vacuum isn't an option.

this is from the Osiris-Rex website..

https://www.asteroidmission.org/?attachment_id=26510#main

Captured on Oct. 22, 2020 -- this series of three images shows that the Touch-and-Go Sample Acquisition Mechanism (TAGSAM) sampling head on NASA’s OSIRIS-REx spacecraft is full of rocks and dust collected from asteroid Bennu, as well as the fact that some of these particles are escaping the sampler head. Analysis by the OSIRIS-REx team suggests that bits of material are passing through small gaps where the head’s mylar flap is slightly wedged open. The mylar flap (the black bulge visible in the 9 o’clock position inside the ring) is designed to keep the collected material locked inside, and these unsealed areas appear to be caused by larger rocks that didn’t fully pass through the flap. Based on available imagery, the team suspects there is a plentiful sample inside the head, and is on a path to stow the sample as quickly as possible.

Click to view attachment

I’m also wondering how they will collect it from all these screws, cables, slots, nooks and crannies of the sampler???
This will have to take a long time (this amount of dust outside was not expected).
And they certainly want to collect everything down to the last, smallest micro-grain, because it is one of the most valuable materials we currently have on Earth. And it still needs to be separated from potential microparticles of the sampler itself (metal, plastic, etc.). Lots of hard work!!!

Of course, the "main sample" - initially estimated at about a quarter of a kilogram - is safe inside the TAGSAM ring, behind the "strainer" - they haven't opened it yet, because they want to do it inside a „different specialized glovebox”.

I think (and I keep my fingers crossed) that a lot of quite large "pebbles" survived...

I was hoping the spacecraft took pictures of the sample release, but didn't want to ask...
It certainly did!
Fantastic imagery!
I can almost make out a contrast in the shape of the heat shield from before/after landing (though it's difficult to make out with the desert floor obscuring the bottom).
And the release imagery, with the crescent Earth, wonderful!

https://blogs.nasa.gov/osiris-rex/wp-conten...se-sequence.gif
„This sequence of images has been processed to remove most of the scattered sunlight, bring out more detail of the capsule and release debris cloud, and prevent the Earth crescent from saturating.”
„debris cloud” - So we moved a lot of "pebbles" from one place in the interplanetary space of the Solar System to another - closer to the Sun I wonder what evolution they will go through next.

How would there still be debris from Bennu on the outside the capsule after the Earth return and all the various manoeuvres during that time? Unless it was somehow with electrostatic forces to the main spacecraft bus?

Is there any other source of debris that could be dislodged? When stages separate during launch I always see bits of ice flying about, but it couldn't be that in this case.

My rough animation composed of 2 pictures from StowCam taken on September 22, 2016 (two weeks after launch) and October 28, 2020 (after completing the final step of the sample stowage process: closing its SRC).
You can clearly see many Bennu grains "glued" (probably electrostatically) to the lid and other components of the spacecraft. I have circled some of them.
Apparently these and many other grains survived the entire flight and all the maneuvers in space. Only the process of releasing the capsule "unsticked" and released these grains, visible in space in the NASA animation.

Pictures I used:
https://www.asteroidmission.org/stowcam_22september2016/
https://www.asteroidmission.org/?attachment_id=26630#main

Nice work, that explains it!
Note the biggest 'piece' you circle dates back to before the sample return. It is likely a micrometeoroid impact (and definitely no trace of it anymore!)

Indeed, this largest speck appeared already between September 22, 2016 and March 2, 2017, i.e. definitely before sampling - so it cannot be a particle of Bennu. Fragment of the original picture description: „...A small, dark spot is visible on the surface of the SRC that was not present during the checkout images taken after launch in 2016. Subsequent analysis has shown that this spot is an indentation approximately 0.08 inches (2 mm) across – the size of a poppy seed – that may have been caused by a particle hitting the SRC during flight...”

This confirms how risky interplanetary flights are - if this micrometeorite were slightly larger and hit some vital element of the spacecraft (or e.g. a camera), it would create a serious problem, and maybe even a threat to the entire mission (I assume that the impact was at high speed (and therefore high energy) since it scratched a part of the shield)...

Progress in sample extraction: https://blogs.nasa.gov/osiris-rex/
„...Images of the bulk sample and early analysis results will be revealed during a live NASA event on Wednesday, Oct. 11 at 11 a.m. EDT.”

At this stage, putting the whole capsule on a scale should tell them the weight of the sample. IMO. Do I miss something ?

Possibly, with just the sample collection portion alone (and subtracting the spilled dust outside), but since the heat shield ablated somewhat on re-entry, that mass loss would throw off any measurement of the entire capsule (an interesting question of whether it is more or less than was gathered from Bennu).
Just be patient a few more days!

From NASA TV
https://www.nasa.gov/nasatv/

This is what fell outside of TAGSAM (through a mylar flap that was not fully closed - blocked by a few "pebbles" during sample collection). TAGSAM and the "pebbles" it contains have not been opened yet.

A good problem to have TAGSAM not open yet due to all the material outside (a good problem to have!)