IIRC glycine

(smallest that is, I have no knowledge of Cassini's abilities)

Atomic mass limits for TEGA mass spectrometer:

"Phoenix Lander's Thermal Evolved Gas Analyzer: Differential Scanning Calorimeter and Mass Spectrometer Database Development
Author(s): Sutter, B.; Lauer, H. V.; Golden, D. C.; Ming, D. W.; Boynton, W. V.
Abstract: The Mars Scout Phoenix lander will land in the north polar region of Mars in May, 2008. One objective of the Phoenix lander is to search for evidence of past life in the form of molecular organics that may be preserved in the subsurface soil. The Thermal Evolved Gas Analyzer (TEGA) was developed to detect these organics by coupling a simultaneous differential thermal analyzer (SDTA) with a mass spectrometer. Martian soil will be heated to approx.1000 C and potential organic decomposition products such as CO2, CH4 etc. will be examined for with the MS. TEGA s SDTA will also assess the presence of endothermic and exothermic reactions that are characteristic of soil organics and minerals as the soil is heated. The MS in addition to detecting organic decompositon products, will also assess the levels of soil inorganic volatiles such as H2O, SO2, and CO2. Organic detection has a high priority for this mission; however, TEGA has the ability to provide valuable insight into the mineralogical composition of the soil. The overall goal of this work is to develop a TEGA database of minerals that will serve as a reference for the interpretation of Phoenix-TEGA. Previous databases for the ill-fated Mars Polar Lander (MPL)-TEGA instrument only went to 725 C. Furthermore, the MPL-TEGA could only detect CO2 and H2O while the Phoenix-TEGA MS can examine up to 144 atomic mass units. The higher temperature Phoenix-TEGA SDTA coupled with the more capable MS indicates that a higher temperature database is required for TEGA interpretation. The overall goal of this work is to develop a differential scanning calorimeter (DSC) database of minerals along with corresponding MS data of evolved gases that can used to interpret TEGA data during and after mission operations. While SDTA and DSC measurement techniques are slightly different (SDTA does not use a reference pan), the results are fundamentally similar and thus DSC is a useful technique in providing comparative data for the TEGA database. The objectives of this work is to conduct DSC and MS analysis up to 1000 C of select minerals that may be found in the martian soil. "

From NASA Technical Reports:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:QDVCY...;cd=2&gl=us

Craig

I saw a talk a couple of days ago by Emily Haynes, a Longmont area scientist/educator who will be spending some time in Tucson soon with the team. She showed an orbiter image with what to me looked like a small ice outcrop perhaps on the other side of Heimdall crater from Phoenix. So perhaps some ice can occur at the surface if it's in a shadowed area. The caveat I'll have to track down is whether this could possibly be dry ice instead. I'll have to look for this image as well.

Steve

Here is a link to a table of small organic molecules and their molecular weight (from Jovian/Titan-style atmosphere discharge experiment literature): (Surface Chemistry of Titan thread, post 165)

With a detection limit of m.w. 144 (thanks, bellerapheron1!), the TEGA oven would be able to detect molecular weights that would get you up to aspartic acid (m.w. 133).

But remember, you'll only observe a peak at 133 amu. There are many combinations of atoms and structural configurations of those atoms that that could make the same peak. (As I learn everyday.)

(There are many ways to form amino acids, it doesn't necessarily infer life.)

-Mike

Microbes have survived on Earth for 90% of the planet's history despite all the climate change. Mars has had liquid oceans over long periods too.

They will easily be able to see bio-markers if they exist at this scale:

http://ares.jsc.nasa.gov/astrobiology/biomarkers/images.cfm

Long odds, but it's just possible these guys will be the first to see evidence of the Holy Grail they are after. And us too!

...and at meter scales could one look for such things like stromatolites?

The discriminant power of a mass spectrometer depends very much to its resolution. IIRC, A good lab MS on earth has a mass resolution of 1 in 10^5. On the other hand, INMS on Cassini had difficulty telling N2 from CO in the Enceladus plume. The actual molecular mass of N2 is 28.014 and of CO 28.010 (a difference of 1 in 7000). In addition, each element has different isotopes and based on their abundance, the mass peak splits to multiple peaks with difference in mass of approximately 1. Glycine has a molecular mass of 75. But even if TEGA shows a peak at 75, it is difficult to claim it is glycine, unless it can resolve all the peaks and the relative ratio of the peaks follows what is expected from the isotopic abundance of C, O and N on Mars.

If the soils have been heated up to 1000 oC, what is the chance that organic molecules with small enough MW will survive intact ?
Even if complex organics were there in the soil, it would be difficult to recognize their original structure by their low MW thermal degradation products.
And I concur that finding aminoacids in Mars would not be that ground shaking, these molecules are abundant ....

ok, back to watching Netherlands-Russia now :-)

Yes, pretty much, save if something like this were to happen

Click to view attachment

...good one, Ted, but unlikely. Phoenix is in the North polar area...

True...I had a picture of a penguin with an almost mars-like background, which made merging the images easy enough to be worth the effort, but I did think of using a polar bear.

So if there is significant subsurface ice on Mars, does that mean that there could also much more subsurface granite than has been detected so far on the surface?

Here are the only references to martian granite I found:

THEMIS detects blob of granite on Mars: http://themis.asu.edu/discoveries-granitepeaks


Ruthorford and Hess, LPS 7 (1981) abstracts 915-917. "Granite genesis in a planetary context: processes and important variables for Mars." http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin...p;filetype=.pdf

-Mike

To be specific the THEMIS site notes "granite like" which includes an entire family of quartz-plagioclase-feldspar type rocks. They could very well be looking at diorite here, and as every good geologist will tell you......diorite should never be taken for granite.

I must bow to the Master.

You guys rock!

That was gneiss of you.

I looked at some of the older images. I think there is already evidence of ice subliming away in the images from sols 20 and 21. The colour combination in following images is from slinted:
Click to view attachment
The chunk on the left is in shadow in both images, and seems to be shrinking. Other smaller pieces seem to disappear altogether.

Okay, you guys, cut that schist out!

I can only sit back and marble at the collective wit here.

Brian

My sediments exactly.

We have now Doug to a new level.

Geology's 100 Greatest Puns will return after these messages....

I'll breccia anything we can't keep it going much longer, though...

-the other Doug

Yeah. The further we push this, the more painfull it will become.
Hehe, that was uncalled for. Upper Jurassic!

Will someone explain to akuo what happened to his post.

I don't know - I have a feeling this will turn into something of a clastic.

This thread's going to be slated.

They'll work themselves into a lava over it, no doubt. Mind you, some of the replies have been quite igneous.

I predict that these replies will work their way further and further towards the porphyry of geological nomenclature, before spiralling down into a serious syncline.

I'd love to ride across this land on a Horst and Graben a few rocks on the way.

sorry!

Of quartz.

I've never seen such twisted metamorphics in all my life. Is everybody on this thread...stoned?

(NOW I run like hell...)

Just confirmed: There is water on Mars: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/...x-20080731.html

This has to be the most confirmed fact about Mars EVER!

I knew it when I saw the first pic of the"pond" ice was shown under the lander months ago


" LOS ANGELES - The Phoenix spacecraft has tasted Martian water for the first time. The robot heated up ice in one of its instruments earlier this week. Scientists say the chemical test confirms the presence of ice near the Martian north pole.

Until now, the evidence for ice has been circumstantial. That was based on photos Phoenix took of a hard splotchy area near its landing site and changes it saw in a trench."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080731/ap_on_sc/phoenix_mars_2

(unnecessary chunk of previous post removed)

Loooong time lurker...first post...been wondering about this for a while....Has there been enough analysis done of the Martian "water" to make up a batch of it on Earth ??

Phoenix has "tasted" Martian water...what about us Earthlings ?? Is there eenough data on the water found on Mars to combine the appropriate elements (h2o +++ ??) and would it be safe for humans to actually sample ????

Oh wow. Total marketing opportunity.

Once all the results are published, it would be pretty easy to figure out the right salts to mix up to come up with something that could approximate martian water as determined so far. (There might be trace elements present that were not detected or even some that could not be specifically identified).

You could probably leave out some of the elements and components to come up with something that might be non-toxic enough to sold. Slap a catchy label on it, a great ad campaign, and Martian Water could be all the rage.

-Mike

Does Martian Water have antioxidants and lycopene?

No, but it has what plants crave: electrolytes!

So...first we sell the Martian Water....
......then we sell a water that has antioxidants to counteract any oxidizers in the Martian Water...

BWA-HA-HA!!!!

Poison: $1

Antidote: $1 million



-the other Doug

...best business model ever, you two!

I suspect, though, that even faux Martian water would taste atrocious & smell worse, kinda like the tap water in Amarillo, Texas. If you leave a faucet dripping in that town for a week, you got yourself a sink stalagmite...