You're no stranger to mounding criticism onto the mission team...but you have zero justification for it this time around - at the very first opportunity they were backing out from it, and I am sure they'll continue to keep their foot in getting out as quickly as is wise, and it's only sensible to spend a few sols of remote-obs studying the resulting trench, and then move on. 10 sols all up perhaps.

Again, you have to be reminded...these are not hot-rods...these are geologists.


Doug

Additional movement on sol 837, but the rover is still in the sandtrap.

Click to view attachment
("Movie" made with fhazcam shots taken on sol 833, 836, and 837).

New Oppy update:
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/sta...tml#opportunity


Todays drive was apparantly 10 meters.

It's a funny coincidence that Oppy escaped from Purgatory june 4 2005. Almost a year ago

Thanks Tes! As small steps as "I expected", however clearly more backward movement than at the beginning on Purgatory. Two or three sols more perhaps....

June 4. wow that could exactly match.

New Update: "June, 4th 2007: Opportunity rover is free again, after one week stuck while attempting to exit Victoria Crater. The MER team now plan to drive the rover towards an even bigger crater 10km southwards"

Doug,where was I criticizing the team in my post with what is currently going on with oppy ? My post was directed towards Nico and his comments,lighten up
It always amazes me with the people so worried about the risks of getting stuck,they don't seem too concerned about the rovers simply giving out from old age during these periods of investigations. I look ahead and see bigger prizes (like Victoria) rather then spending endless time during investigations and inspecting every grain of sand,once again not directed at the jpl team but some here....... .

Investigating every grain of sand? Hardly. Relatively speaking we've been racing through the Etched terrain since leaving Erebus. There have been many outcrops with significant layering along the way- with the IDD being placed for investigations for 2 or 3 times. The Etched terrain represents a different part of the puzzle than what Victoria has to offer, and therefore it should be investigated as well.

Endless investigations and inspecting every grain of sand? What planet are you on?

Windy,are these field camps subjected to the hostile Mars environment where time is ticking down on their longevity ?

"[t]here haven't been any really big surprises," said Squyres. "That's sort of a good thing because we haven't really had to slow down and stop for anything. We're seeing bedrock and rippled bed forms that are very much in line with what we've seen previously, which means we don't have to linger anywhere. It's been kind of nice that there haven't been a lot of temptations to stop, because we think the really exciting science is ahead of us at Victoria. Since we're seeing stuff that we're already pretty familiar with, we've simply been trying to make as good time as possible, and we had been doing extremely well, better than 100 meters a week typically."

Happy?

Ok,I guess I didn't make myself clear in my original post....once again am not saying that is what oppy and team has been doing,I have no issue with what the rover has been since purgatory. My issue would be with some that would to launch a purgatory length investigation into how and why oppy got stuck this.

I don't think the purgatory investigation was particularly long. They stuck the IDD down once and took some pics, that was under a week I think? This one is probably going to be even quicker.

The advance lately has been surprisingly trouble free anyway. I don't think they've once had to debug the azimuth motor after starting the treck in earnest again. I was expecting the IDD to cause a lot more trouble on the way to Victoria.

Maybe what BillyMER and many others feel is that there is a lot of potential in these rover(s) that remains unlocked, not because of limitations on the rover itself but because there are not enough people on Earth to manage the program. I am absolutely sure that the folks that currently work on the project do as much as humanly possible, however if the staff had remained the size it initially was at landing Oppy wouldn't have spend 3 months sitting motionless while Spirit was racing down the hill. We wouldn't have suffered from restricted sols half of the time and we wouldn't have stopped for every weekend. In other words we would have reached Victoria 6 months ago. As long as Oppy keeps rolling this isn't actually that bad, but one of these days a drive motor is going to fail and the journey is over. When that happens a lot of science that could have been done is lost because a few million $$$ had to be saved on a 900 million $$$ program.


ps. Have you seen that Griffin has actually forbidden JPL to hire more people? (nasa watch website)
This back to the Moon thing really hurts.

does anyone know the time period from the time the rover got free of purgatory till the time it continued on it's way,wasn't it close to a month ?



very well said Cugel,what irritates me is that I get the impression sometimes that these things you bring up are taboo to talk about here.
I personally never thought I would see in my lifetime an on going mission interrupted by weekends and holidays.

Ok, you are right. The investigation was a lot longer than a week. Looking at the raws, they got out of P on sol 484, put the IDD down on sol 498 and were on their way again on sol 511.

There were a lot of time there doing "nothing" instead of investigations. Presumably the team were figuring what the heck to do next, since they found this problem and then trying to come up with the slip detection to avoid it happening again.

Most of this doesn't need to be repeated here.

Just think how upset we'd all have been if the chaps (and chapettes) at JPL had put their collective feet to the pedals and gunned Opportunity deeper and deeper into a pit; their cautious treatment of that fragile, jewel-like machine ensured it's survival until the present. I vote for slow, but sure, and a l-o-o-o-o-ng time until EOM!

Bob Shaw

Who in the heck is advocating reckless behavior. ? Like we find ourselves stuck in a "pit ?" and we want nothing more to grind in further ?? I also think of it like a jewel like machine and want to utilize it to it's fullest. There's one mindset here among the PC regulars and no room for another train of thought.

Sounds like you got it, Alan! From the Planetary Society update:

Oppy is moving!

I'm dying to see Victoria and spend 30+ bloody hours of stitching a pan using raw images.
I would like to believe the team that they'll get out of it soon enough AND am glad they're eager to learn from it.
A third time without further knowledge could maybe prove disaster, and that place could be 80 meters removed from Victoria. THEN we'll go nuts, right?



Please don't go judging anyone, or especially a lot of us. Is anybody judging you?

Nico

To BillyMER.

Remember that Oppy is a rover which will receive commands and send raw data which actually takes around 18.02 minutes of space travel of 325,3 millions kilometers. Then the signal is at Mars, coordinate the synchronization with the ODY or MGS to relay it to Oppy and viceversa. Then, Oppy has others restrictions such it cannot consume the electrical energy more than 2 hours of ridding in every day due to the sol winter energy restriction.

Finally, the feedback of every steps is taking every day. Hence, it is perfectly understandable that the JPL team is not killing a lazy time but paying close attention as not to miss any time in every communications.

Besides, I agree that there is NOTHING to rush to Victoria Crater since it is not a fast rover and it is a GEOLOGY rover and its mission is to get well know the surrounding specially when it is approaching to VC since these places provides valuable information to understand the formation of VC so it must take the best science possible on its way to VC.

So, hope you will understand that situation. It is not worth to critize it. The situation of MER was created by one of the most talented persons of space exploration.

Rodolfo

Some checking on the sand might even be helpful to get one earlier arrvial date, avoiding a similar mishap. Though it mainly seems to be that of turning the rover around for solar aligment in a place where it shouldnt have tried anything such.
I agree on one thing, and that about the limited sol's. To have such are not a good management of these wonderful tools of Mars exploration.
Lastly: Dont accuse me of being politically correct EVER!

FYI,

Just checked sol 838 planned sequences; same pattern as sol 837 i.e. 10m drive attempt.
Let's hope this is *THE* day.

The path is overlain with a surface of variable characteristics. Since Oppy got mired in loose sand, we don't understand these characteristics perfectly and it will benefit this mission and future missions to stop and see what the problem is so that the navigation software/firmware/hardware can be optimized.

Chill. We'll get there eventually.

--Bill

Rodolfo.,I suggest reading my posts again,I have no problem with the current operations of the rovers or for that matter for the past year. My objection was with something that someone suggested doing and the length of time that would take vs. moving on. There's no risk free exploration,you have to weigh the benefits of it vs. the remaining time the rover might or might not have left.

for extremes, here's a guy who would actually be driving Spirit around.

John W
Posts: 31
Reply: 17

Posted: June 2, 2006 09:26 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I think SS has lost interest in both rovers and has moved on to other things. Leaving rover operations and decisions to very low level people. Pretty soon both rovers may be sitting like flies on flypaper. Poor old Spirit is already in that state."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guess we all know where that comes from.

Did I mention I'm having a bad day?

Nico

[quote name='Nix' date='Jun 3 2006, 08:32 AM' post='56832']
Did I mention I'm having a bad day?
Nico

Dear Nico,
Never let bad mood getting on you. Life is full of nice surprises : See my topic "Victoria"

I don't think they've "lost interest" in the rovers. There is no doubt that funding is much reduced and so is staffing, but the project has extended somewhat beyond the original 90-day life and it is a tremendous that they have kept the project ongoing instead of shutting it down.

Realistically, we have learned that Oppy can get into difficulty, detect the problem and wait for help; there is no need hop right on the problem and fix it immediately.

Nico, I've see that discussion; too bad that the signal:noise ratio there has gotten so bad there.

--Bill

New pics after sol 838 extraction attemp.
Free? Not yet.

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...H2P1204R0M1.JPG

[quote name='Tesheiner' date='Jun 3 2006, 10:42 AM' post='56843']
New pics after sol 838 extraction attemp.
Free? Not yet.

It's nice to see JPL has the situation in hands. They are as robust as the spacecrafts they design.
I'm amazed to note that, not a long time ago, we were aware of spaceraft's progress by reading papers a whole months after things occured and NOW, we want to know everything even before JPL get a thought of what's going on. That's the pros & cons of the Internet.
Stay cool my friends we're here to talk and make supositions. JPL is running the spacecraft (with the help of Tesh )

... and exactly the same for 839 and 840.

This is a by-sol resume for each wheel (enhanced images):
Click to view attachment
I have impression that there was a slow progress only in horizontal direction, not in the vertical one!

If anyone wants to make a prediction of when Oppy gets out....I'll say Sol 843. Just a guess.

Well, when they commanded the first move on sol 836 I said "in a day or two"... May I try again? Sol 841.

Here is a ... route map. No, it's a bad joke!
Forward-left wheel positions, sol after sol, since 835.

Is a good joke, Tesheiner! Thanks for all your maps.

Well, well, well, look who's here! Good old Hortonheardawho, Imagery Grand Master from the "other forum"!
As one who has admired your work for quite a spell, let me welcome you to our little group of 'ruminant Squyres-wannabees'. I hope things here won't prove too straight-laced for you. Some of us don't welcome hugs as much as others, but we still manage to have a little fun when the flow of scientific data slows down. You're probably a bit late to enlist in one of our 'warring factions', but, whether big- or little-enders, we never mind a cheer or two from the bleachers. I'm sure at least one side will be poring over your images for confirmatory clues. Aloha!

in the cool of the pool welcome Horton

My gut feeling says Shaka likes your presence too.

Nico

Wow, welcome, Horton! Glad to see you here!

Pando / youremi

Welcome to the forum, Horton! I'm glad to "see" you here.

Thanks for your kind comments, and please continue showing all of us your brillant images!

Click to view attachment

Test of file attachments.

Hope it doesn't mess up too badly.

Hey Doug, I'm still looking for that paper merchant...

It's amazing who comes out of the woodwork here. Since there's a bit of delurking going on, I should say that I really appreciate the enlightened discussions, and especially Tesheiner's route maps. I've been a regular lurker for many sols.

I'll contribute here only if I feel that I have something extra to contribute.

Horton and Aldebaran, welcome!!!! Your presence here is LONG overdue (but I've been TELLING you that "over there" for AGES, haven't I?!?!?! )

For those UMSF members not familiar with Horton's work, he is indeed an "Image Master", and you're going to adore his work. Aldebaran is a very thoughtful, very constructive poster too. UMSF just got a whole lot richer.

I hope that the 'one man minding the store' has a stop button if something unexpected happens...

I know Horton's work for quite a while now. He was among the people who inspired me to get something 'out'. I particularly love his continuous work on color x-eye stereos -they rock.

Nico

Hi Horton,

Welcome !!

I admired your work from early in the mission in the other forum and am very glad you have joined us. its definately long overdue.

ken

Holy Moly, I did a double take. Horton here?

I love your stuff Horton, I like both blogs. I know Markcarey has gotten slow but it is a great place(maybe it's the yellow).

Rock on!

Kung

Yikes! I took a brief respite from Mars today to install new baseboards in the family room, and then returned to find three pages of mud-slinging fights and some new contributors. Welcome, new people.

I was working on a comparison graph of Opportunity's recent progress out of this WEH, compared to the Purgatory event. It verifies the 6/1 update that states that this first extraction attempt was better than three times as efficient as the Purgatory extraction. My estimate, based on the one data point available, indicates that the number is roughly 3.6. The latest drive for which we have images suggests that the first 10 meter drive attempt performed even better than the first. I think there is a good chance that Opportunity is already free, and I await the next image update.

...

I think getting out of this dune is going to take a little longer than they expected.

Yup.

Another sol (839) and another small step: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...HEP1204R0M1.JPG.
But still buried in the sand.

Unfortunately, about 1/3 of the movement appears to be downwards. Maybe you need a third dimension on your micro-route map.