Good morning,

I'm very enjoy to look at Victoria Crater, but, Opportunity cannot arrive before a few months.
That's why I wanted to make a simulation of what we could see when the rover will arrive to the rim of Victoria.
I've make this with Terragen and the elevation map with Gimp, from MGS data of Victoria.
So, here is a view from the north west rim of the crater into it (pano with Autostitch).

Oops! I'd forget to give you the .TER file and world .TGW file if you want to navigate in and around Victoria crater :

Zip file for Terragen(the terrain and the world files)

and the bmp texture for those who have Sopack :

Bitmap texture (12 Mo)

If you have a registered version, you can optimize all (I think...).

The image on your first post is already impressive!

Just one comment: Try to add a rover somewhere, in order to have a size reference. Otherwise, Victoria would look the same as Endurance.

Nice work Damien! I look forward seeing more of those!

Nico

Thanks!

I'd made a view of Victoria with a rover insert, I'd tried to make the rover to be scalle with the crater.
The position of Opportunity is at the location of the pano view.

Note : I have notified that the .ter file is wrong (saving trouble?). I give you the link to the elevation map in greyscale (bitmap format) :
Elevation Map of Victoria (4 Mo)

We all knew that Victoria was big, but this is the first 3D simulation with a known reference included and the result is ... well,

Thanks, Ant103.

PS: Doug, we need a new smiley something like eyes and mouth wide open.

Just as long as it's not a graphic of the rover upsidedown at the edge of the dune field!

Beautiful simulation, Psukata... and thanks for elevation/terragen data!

Quite impressive. Hopefully we get to see it in.....well, not in person. In rover?

Congratulations Psukata. From that images, here we start to speculate on how Oppy will met there. It is so big and Oppy will stay on the top of Victoria for many days to contemplate a beautiful panoramic view.

Rodolfo

In recent posts, people have mentioned having dreams that they are on Mars with the rovers. About a year ago I dreamed that one of them dumped upside down and I had to pick it up and put it on its wheels again.


Hopefully we can keep them upright.....

Hi all

Victoria crater is not very far. I took the occasion for make an other serie of Terragen simulation with a better elevation map (in the first, the ejecta coronna wasn't put in the elevation map).

So, here is an aerial view taken at the height of 700m :
Click to view attachment

An other to show evenning ambiancy on the rim of Victoria, at the entry point :
Click to view attachment

Good work Ant103!

The bottom picture looks very real. Very big and MER won't be able to see well the wall for any stratigraphy levels.

Rodolfo

It's lovely. It will be fun to see how much the real thing matches.

Beautiful art. I seem to recall an earlier one where it had more of an Endurance-like profile, with more depth and steeper sides. Is this a more realistic portrayal? Do the MOC photos tell us what the profile is?

Brian

Thank you very much

BrianL, the depth of the crater is about 60m in my last simulation with the rim about 10m over the plain level.
But, I think that the crater is deeper than 60m (about 90~100m?).

If you want, I can give you the Terragen files to make your own renderings.

Terragen World file and .ter elevation map

In this moment, I'm waiting for the version 2 of Terragen who will be more realistic.

Website : http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/

tremendously beautiful artwork

It evokes the closing sceen from IMAX Roving Mars

and perhaps we'll have to change our thinking of Endurance to a "dwarf crater" compared to Victoria

ken

PS : and what is your projected angle for the entrance ramp?

Is this value backed up by some analysis? What we're seeing of the rim at the moment is that it is no more than a metre or so higher than the plain and I haven't seen anything that clearly shows that the crater is 90-100m deep. My own gut feeling is that it is in the 20-30m range at most.

Really great work, Ant! (look at this post, are you menacing Oppy!?).
Helvick, if your feeling is correct, I fear Victoria view will be deludent... Someone already highlighted that Victoria interior will resemble more to Grand Canyon than Endurance (and Terragen simulation partially confirm this) but if we have to further reduce topography by 4, we risk to see only an "enlarged Erebus")...

that definately looks like one impressive crater. hopefully we will get such a view in a few weeks time.

I must agree (and I want! )... and the confirm could arrive within few days, not weeks!

The same to me. VC isn't deep but around 25-35 meters and its rim goes up to less than 3 meters at the beacons but the rest, are around 1 meter. Let confirm it whenever Oppy arrives there very soon! (Cross fingers so that it will happen)

Rodolfo

The only quantitative information on Victoria's depth that I am aware of comes from the "hell of a view" profile that we saw. It suggests that at least one MOLA control point (-1408 m) fell inside the crater, though we don't know if that point was near the center or somewhere on the inside slopes. It seems unlikely that any other control points defined the height of the rim. However, if we can assume that the elevation at "hell of a view" (-1385 m) is roughly the same as the rim of Victoria, we can perhaps estimate a minimum depth of about 23 meters. Of course, it's easy to see many potential problems with these assumptions, so one can't have a lot of confidence in the results.
Click to view attachment

Hello,

Basing from the MOLA elevation, I've made this picture of Victoria with a depth around 20 meters.

It's a bit flat, isnt'it?

Click to view attachment

So, if, you see the MGS image, you could remark on the South side of the crater the shadows cast by the cliffs. After, the dune field withe 20m deep should be more large, and we mustn't have radial drawing of the sand between the dune field and the rocky rim.
Finally, I deduce the te depth of the crater will be more important than the MOLA data.

I am afraid that the view to Victoria crater won't be so an astonishing landscape due to its flatness comparing to its diameter distance. Anyway, it would be three times, not sure, deeper than Endurance crater.

Rodolfo

It may seem a bit flat but I think it is more likely to be accurate than your other images. In any case they are all superb simulations - good work.

[quote name='Ant103' date='Aug 28 2006, 08:14 PM' post='65939']
Hello,

Basing from the MOLA elevation, I've made this picture of Victoria with a depth around 20 meters.

It's a bit flat, isnt'it?

Click to view attachment

very good work Ant, especially nice colors and sky !
tha's just how I imagine Victoria will look like

although not as impressive as Endurance in terms of steepness, the view will nevertheless be breathtaking
in terms of "vastness" and scale proprtions of near- and far-ground clifss with the contrast to the
giant dune-field !

When discussing MOLA data, can we speak of interpolated values and measured values? However it turns out to be, it will undoubtedly be a wonderful view...

Not if it's 20m deep, it won't be! Seriously, I'll be pretty gutted if VC turns out to be merely a gently curving row of low mounds stretching off into the far distance, surrounding a shallow sandpit. I might ask for my money back...

Ah, but if it is gently sloping that means a better chance of getting in to have a look at some of those nice outcrops. Easy access to slopes also means a better chance of finding a nice breezy spot for a light cleaning. Gentle slopes also means easier exiting, should Opportunity still be working after a lengthy science campaign. Then of course is the question of where to go next.

I seriously doubt it's that shallow. Based on the orbital images, there are some nice vertical cliffs there, and beyond the cliffs there are streak marks on the sandy slope leading to the center dune field. Those streaks would appear due to the material sliding toward the center of the crater, and the rough minimum angle I'm sure can be calculated based on gravity and the cohesiveness of the material.

I had already decided not to send this image I made some time ago, because I was somewhat dissatisfied with its outward appearance. But I thought it's maybe suitable to this discussion.

To have a better idea of the relative proportions of Endurance and Victoria Craters, I made a cross-eyed pair of the non-map-projected MOC images (for their better resolution) and pasted EC into VC for comparison. The yellow lines are for measuring the depth and steepness of both craters. Crater depths based on parallax measurement are given, I think they are accurate to one pixel. This means that VC (28 pix) is almost exactly three times as deep as Endurance (9 pix).

On the other hand, I think the results are rather inconclusive as to my attempt to determine the angles of various slopes (decimals = depth parallax divided by line length). There's quite large error marginal due to many uncertainties. But I'm quite sure that at least the West Ramp is gentler sloping than the SW ramp of Endurance, so no difficulty for Oppy going in and coming out, IMO.

Yes Pando, I'm agree with you. I think that the crater is deeper than the known MOLA datas. To have sand sliding from the rim to the center, it must have an inclination more important. And the shadows of the cliffs might significate that there is a good depth.

Thanks marswiggle, this is exactly the check I was looking for...
I do not recall the Endurence depth (perhaps something like 30m?) but, even if with uncertains you mentioned, yours and Pando's considerations assure that we aren't going to see an "enlarged Erebus"!

Well - Endurance was almost 16m deep according to the published DEM

I'm expecting Victoria to be somewhere between 35 and 45m deep - just guessing.

Doug

That sounds like a good guestimate. I searched for "official" comments about Victoria and my searches did turn up one Leonard David article that I did not remember seeing, though it apparently was published twice on space.com and another time on MSNBC in May and June. It had a couple of comments from Steve Squyres and William Farrand that are relevant to recent discussions.

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/06051...ers_update.html

Steve commented on the initial campaign after arrival at Victoria:
"Once there, Squyres said that the plan is to approach that feature much as they did Endurance Crater.
“[We’ll] start by taking images from several points along the rim to get the lay of the land…and then see if there’s a place where we can enter the crater safely,” Squyres said. “There’s no guarantee that we’ll be able to get in, of course, but we’re not driving all this way just for the view.”"

William Farrand compared the outcrops at Eagle and Endurance to what they expected to find in Victoria:
"“We got about 40 to 50 centimeters of outcrop at Eagle Crater [at the start of its roving] and then 7 meters at Endurance Crater.”
However, at Victoria, it looks like there’s a deeper story there.
Images taken from Mars orbit suggest there might be something like 65 feet (20 meters) of outcrop exposed within the walls of Victoria Crater, Farrand stated."

Of course, once we get there and see what things really look like, plans could change.
...edited to put Leonard David's names in the correct order...

FWIW, here is a photo of Barringer Crater shortened vertically to give the diameter:depth ratio that we may see at Victoria (from 7:1 to about 20:1). This may be close to what it could look like. Maybe...

--Bill

Wow, thats a dramatic difference from the real Barringer: ca. 1200 m x 170 m

Endurance is ca. 130 m x 20 m

looks like you are estimating Victoria at ca. 800 m x ca. 40 m

I hope you are right and I am wrong.

My non-geologist hunch is its steeper and deeper. Closer to ca. 800 m x ca. 90-100 m.

steeper and deeper while more visually dramatic would also be treacherous. I hope they will try to enter somewhere rather than first circumnavigating completely

soon we'll know

ken

The discussion of Victoria's depth and geology (with limited data) is fascinating - maybe a good subject for a new thread.

Doing a quick and dirty calculation using a d/D ratio of 1:8 you'd realistically expect a maximum depth of 100m for this crater. It looks as though there is considerable infill in Victoria however and a thick mantle of dust lies over the original crater floor. The current depth would probably be on the order of 75m I'd say (from high point of rim to the drift base in the centre of the crater). I'm guessing that where the model is accurate is in how wide and flat the centre of the crater will appear. But I think the edges will be much steeper than the model suggests.

If the solar phase angle in the photo of Victoria is known, just take the sine of that and multiply by the width of the shadows at the cliff bases and that would give you a rough idea of the height of the NW cliffs. I'd venture they are somewhere near 40 m high. That should make for an impressive sight! No money back I fear! (Ken I didn't see your post till after mine but I think you're right)

This is such an interesting crater. It is not typical of the majority of Martian craters, with its sinuous, selectively eroded NW rim, its crenellated southern exposure towering high above the apron (probably visible from a good distance to the SE just like Endurance was from Eagle), and the gorgeous drifts at the base. I've also been fascinated with the dark streaks of dust on the apron to the NE that seem to have been winnowed from the "chaff" or heavier dust and channelled up through the eroded bays in the crater rim. Why would this be so distinct from the surrounding dust? Perhaps as dust settles in the bottom of Victoria it also separates gradually with the lighter, dark dust rising to the top and the heavier settling into the dunes. That's something I hope they will check into while circumnavigating Victoria.

Like everyone, I can hardly wait for that first photo! I haven't posted much but am really enjoying the forums. Thanks for the contributions.

For Barringer I'm using 4100' x 570' and for Victoria 700' x 35' (but depth values are all over the map), so I took a recent bottom-end of the range. If Victoria is 100m deep, then it will resemble the un-shrunk Barringer.

Your WAG is as good as mine...

But I suspect that Victoria will be shallow, there has been a great deal of slumping of the walls and some sand blowing in. We'll see.

The MSSS site gives Sun elevations for all images; for Image R1500822 the solar altitude is 65 degrees.

http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/r10_r15/im...5/R1500822.html

--Bill

Steepness of some of the walls might mean some areas of the crater would be off limits due to power limitations, yes?

Another reason to peek at the crater from the rim from a variety of positions before going in, so as to visibly mark where the shadows fall? I mean, with a smooth rim, that's one thing, but could you see parking close to a part of the rim that juts out?

Ah yes, that first photo... How many times have we waited, poised on the edge of our seats for that next, amazing and anticipated view, as each of these intrepid rovers has carried us armchair explorers to new Martian vistas time and time again. I suspect each of them still have a few surprises in store for us. There is probably an entire book waiting to be written, describing those special instances.

Since Victoria is supposed to be a crater exhumed from a previously buried past, I am not sure how useful canned depth/diameter ratios will be, but my gut feeling is that such ratios will be smaller rather than larger in this case. Looking at the MOC stereo pairs, it seems to be pretty deep, but in those same pairs, so does Eagle crater. The one thing I feel fairly confident about is that it will probably be the most impressive vista Opportunity captures during it's entire lifetime. But I do look forward to a later view resembling that at Burns Cliff.

MarkL: Welcome. You've described several of the questions we've been debating for a while, now. The next impressive vista is within our reach. (Somehow, it seems that that wheel should be turning the other way.)

I did this already.
The shadows indicate that the "cliffs" around the edge are 8m+-2m high. How much deeper the interior is I can't say but I'm sticking with an overall depth of 20-25m for now. I really do hope to be wrong though.

CosmicRocker,

Can you expand on why you think this is true? Is there evidence that the evaporites or some other formation were once deposited over the top of VC and then eroded away? Of course there must have been some erosion since VC was formed, but is it possible that VC is younger than the evaporites and hasn't seen much "exhumation from a previously buried past"?

Forgive me if this has already been discussed in another thread. I'm afraid I don't have time to do a full search.

Thanks,

Castor

We're getting sooo spoiled...Even it is only 25 meters deep it will be astounding, I just put Oppy to scale with a 25 and 75 meters deepness...

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/ustrax3/howdeep.jpg

Here's one way of looking at it - very very flawed - but it compares the scale of things - very rough numbers - but relating to reality in some way..... Yes - I know the accesable or visible outcrop wasn't in the full circum. of each crater - so consider these figures to be a 'potential outcrop area' figure...


Eagle crater was about 25m diam with say 0.5m of outcrop.
Endurance was about 150m diam with 7m of outcrop
Victoria is about 700m diam with 20-40m of outcrop.

Let's calculate the total 'outcrop area' as circum * outcrop height....

Eagle - 39 sqM
Endurance- 3300 sqM
Victoria- 44000 - 88000 sqM

Yes - it may not be a view like that from the summit of Husband Hill or the rim of Barringer Crater....but it will be stunning in itself, and introduce us to a little bit of Mars that Opportunity will call home for a long time.

Doug

Not proof, but some discussion in the paper attached to this post.

Yes, that paper by Edgett, et al is where I learned that Victoria might be a relatively old exhumed crater. To be honest, prior to reading that paper I didn't think Victoria could be that old. Their idea of the overlying rock layers being partially eroded, undercut, and then sagging down to form the "entrance ramp" type features seemed to fit reasonably well with things we saw at Endurance crater.

And, keeping the burial-exhumation process in mind, the ejecta apron of Victoria is also old, being buried and uncovered. We don't know what mineralization processes (if any) take place when buried.

Look at the structure of Mogollon and "Payson promontory" at Erebus, they are similar to the "scallops" on the rim of Victoria. Erebus is clearly a buried crater and may be exhumed like Victoria some day.

Mars is an odd place.

--Bill

How do you get that image from a tgw to a jpeg