Unmanned Spaceflight.com > Going To Mogollon...

Bill Harris

Jan 20 2006, 02:30 PM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Jan 20 2006, 05:38 AM)

It was already said that those structures seen on previous hazcam pics (well, in all sort of cameras and filters...) were delicate.

Click to view attachment (138k)
But what about these ones? It looks like the smallest touch could broke them.

Click to view attachment (138k)
PS: It's time to open a new thread, don't you think so?

Good idea. That topic was "tired" and had the cord showing.

Delicate, to be sure. One thing I've noticed is that the "ledge-forming" rocks are a layer and extend to the right and left of where we camped out. I wonder if that feature is related to the bluff at Mogollon Rim?

We need to check out the "mobile dust" at that site and see if there has been more movement during the stopover.
--Bill

lyford

Jan 20 2006, 05:28 PM

Does it look like there was any piled deposition of dust to the right of where the rover wheels were parked for so long?

I realize there are several explanations for this, one of which that I am imagining it all, or it could just be an effect from driving disturbing the soil, and I don't even know if this would map to the right wind direction.

It might be evidence of some movement by wind, nonetheless.

EDIT - Original pic here.

Bill Harris

Jan 20 2006, 07:03 PM

Ed, it may very well be that sand has piled up n the wiindward side of the right wheel. AFAIK, the prevailing wind direction seems to be coming more or less from the right, so it is possible. It could be that soil has been displaced, let's look at earlier and other images of that spot.

--Bill

Tesheiner

Jan 21 2006, 06:10 PM

An article at Space.com:

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/06012...nity_drive.html

"Opportunity will spend its time studying “Overgaard” along the rim of Erebus Crater for the next week or so before heading toward a new region of its Meridiani Planum landing site, mission managers said. "

Sunspot

Jan 21 2006, 07:40 PM

..week or so?

ilbasso

Jan 22 2006, 05:16 AM

They didn't say which week.

CosmicRocker

Jan 22 2006, 06:48 AM

Well, that pretty much confirms that more MIs of the crossbedding are planned. I think we were warned that they were going to look over this exposure in detail. I am really anxious to get to Mogollon, but it would be pretty nice to get a big MI mosaic of that nifty stuff over Lower Overgaard.

Bill Harris

Jan 22 2006, 07:54 AM

> I am really anxious to get to Mogollon, but it would be pretty nice to get a big MI mosaic...

Me too, this is a good opportunity to study x-bedding. We'll just have to sit here and fidget...

--Bill

ElkGroveDan

Jan 22 2006, 03:20 PM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Jan 22 2006, 07:54 AM)

We'll just have to sit here and fidget...

This is what happens when you invite too many geologists to a party.

Bill Harris

Jan 22 2006, 06:30 PM

Foo.

--Bill

alan

Jan 29 2006, 08:54 PM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Jan 21 2006, 12:10 PM)

An article at Space.com:

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/06012...nity_drive.html

"Opportunity will spend its time studying “Overgaard” along the rim of Erebus Crater for the next week or so before heading toward a new region of its Meridiani Planum landing site, mission managers said. "

Oppy leaving today?

717 p0650.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_10x1_az_90_1_bpp
717 p1201.03 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_penultimate_1_bpp_crit16
717 p1214.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
717 p1316.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_ultimate_4_bpp_pri41
717 p1938.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 Navcam_IDD_doc_crit19
717 p1939.04 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_idd_stow_workspace

Shaka

Jan 29 2006, 09:26 PM

QUOTE (alan @ Jan 29 2006, 10:54 AM)

Oppy leaving today?

717 p0650.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_10x1_az_90_1_bpp
717 p1201.03 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_penultimate_1_bpp_crit16
717 p1214.05 0 0 0 0 0 0 front_haz_ultimate_4bpp_pri15
717 p1316.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 rear_haz_ultimate_4_bpp_pri41
717 p1938.07 0 0 0 0 0 0 Navcam_IDD_doc_crit19
717 p1939.04 0 0 0 0 0 0 navcam_idd_stow_workspace

Alan,
The codes above are 'Greek' to me, but I would be shocked and bewildered if Oppy moved more than half a meter over the next week. After spending (wasting?

) a week MIing a slab without obvious festoon bedding, they have yet to map the slab that does have it (maybe). Anyway, they're still having trouble with Oppy's arm joints, so I fear we are going to be stuck here for a while yet.

Christmas is coming; the geese are getting...

dot.dk

Jan 29 2006, 09:42 PM

QUOTE (alan @ Jan 29 2006, 08:54 PM)

Oppy leaving today?

From:
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/sta...tml#opportunity

QUOTE

Science team members next plan to adjust the rover's position slightly to conduct microscopic analysis of another target area, nicknamed "Upper Overgaard."

So no big movement yet...

Shaka

Jan 30 2006, 01:27 AM

QUOTE (dot.dk @ Jan 29 2006, 11:42 AM)

From:
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/sta...tml#opportunity
So no big movement yet...

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...KWP1214R0M1.JPG
O.K. Oppy just stretched, boogied a little, and did a quick pan (deja vu ), just to keep in practice. There's life in the old girl yet!

jvandriel

Jan 30 2006, 09:50 AM

The last images are down and here is the 360 degree panoramic view around Erebus.

Taken with the L1 pancam on Sol 712.

jvandriel

slinted

Jan 31 2006, 12:21 AM

Since this is the thread for "...and points south", it seems as good a place as any for this little chuckle.

The homepage for the Mapping and GIS Laboratory at OSU (the routemap people) currently features a link to an article published in the Columbus Dispatch back on January 3rd. It includes some quotes from the Ron Li, the leader of the OSU mapping group, as well as 2 routemaps credited to the OSU group, showing the rovers progress up until December 22, 2005.

Imagine my surprise when I looked at the Opportunity routemap...not only did Opportunity already arrive at Victoria (which has shrunk to 200 feet wide, and is now apparantly renamed Erebus), but they have already driven partially around the rim

Click to view attachment

Bill Harris

Jan 31 2006, 12:39 AM

I have long commented jokingly that the "route map" contractors seem to be clue-challenged because their route maps have been rather pitiful. I've also joked that they seem to be cloning the look-and-feel of the routmaps we produce here on UMSF since theirs have markedly improved in the last year.

Although I was joking, I don't think I was...

--Bill

jamescanvin

Jan 31 2006, 01:52 AM

QUOTE (slinted @ Jan 31 2006, 11:21 AM)

Since this is the thread for "...and points south", it seems as good a place as any for this little chuckle.

The homepage for the Mapping and GIS Laboratory at OSU (the routemap people) currently features a link to an article published in the Columbus Dispatch back on January 3rd. It includes some quotes from the Ron Li, the leader of the OSU mapping group, as well as 2 routemaps credited to the OSU group, showing the rovers progress up until December 22, 2005.

Imagine my surprise when I looked at the Opportunity routemap...not only did Opportunity already arrive at Victoria (which has shrunk to 200 feet wide, and is now apparantly renamed Erebus), but they have already driven partially around the rim

Click to view attachment

And the Spirit one is no better. The insert is ok (I think) but the main map!

SigurRosFan

Jan 31 2006, 09:47 PM

No Mogollon Rim close-up's??

http://athena.cornell.edu/news/mubss/

--- Once we've hit all the festoons on Upper Overgaard, then there are a couple of other nearby targets we've got our eyes on... one called Bellemont and another called Roosevelt. We'll go after one or both of those, and then it will be time to hit the road in a big way.

The drive south from here is going to be interesting. Victoria crater beckons, and we really want to lay down some serious mileage. ---

Toma B

Jan 31 2006, 09:57 PM

QUOTE (SigurRosFan @ Feb 1 2006, 12:47 AM)

No Mogollon Rim close-up's??

Don't be sad...just think about what would "Victoria Rim close ups" look like...

Shaka

Jan 31 2006, 09:59 PM

QUOTE (SigurRosFan @ Jan 31 2006, 11:47 AM)

No Mogollon Rim close-up's??

I sure there will be if it's safe to approach and there is evidence of a vertical section. A layer in the hand is worth two in Victoria. Getting to Victoria is still a dream. Erebus is reality!

Sunspot

Feb 1 2006, 06:32 PM

According to the latest rover article at the Planetary Society website, they still plan to take what will probably be a quick look at the Mogollon Rim:

http://www.planetary.org/news/2006/0131_Ma...ate_Spirit.html

Nirgal

Feb 1 2006, 09:15 PM

looks like they finally decided to switch the priority to driving in order to seriously try to reach Victoria Crater

quote from
http://www.planetary.org/news/2006/0131_Ma...ate_Spirit.html

QUOTE

“It is a sobering indicator that they won’t keep going and going forever. And that is an additional reason the team wants to try and get to Victoria Crater sooner rather than later.”

I'm very happy with this descision because I have always felt that the fact that the life time of the rovers is so limited should be a reason in favour of a more long-distance-oriented driving strategy rather than against it.

Now, after exceeding mission 'warranty' by about 10 times, the time has come for a more bold, exploratory strategy: Now we can really afford the risk of possibly losing some Sols of additional routine observations by trying to dedicate more of the remaining Sols for the only task of driving: Imagine just 40 Sols of driving-only at a prudent 30 meters/Sol would be about sufficient to cover the remaining kilometer or so to Victoria ! actually this is less time than that has been spent parked at the Olympia site alone.

Switching priorities to long-distance-driving means that maybe they will even decide to completely stow the IDD again for the duration of the Victoria Trek... unstowing it only at Victoria or if really new discoveries pop up along the way...

Other promising quotes from the TPS article:

QUOTE

the things we were hoping we’d find at Mogollon we have found already at Olympia

QUOTE

A balance is necessary, but our hoped-for drive strategy is a pretty aggressive one, and the team is very anxious to head southward at a brisk pace now to get to Victoria Crater.

The current Festoon-Studies are the very necessary and important conclusion
of the intensive Erebus-studies but after that it's time for exploring new horizons again

RNeuhaus

Feb 1 2006, 09:59 PM

The real interesting thing from Mogollon rim is the black or dark stones on its rim on the south side of Oppy's site. Maybe, they have already identified them as a rind?

Rodolfo

tacitus

Feb 1 2006, 10:12 PM

QUOTE (Nirgal @ Feb 1 2006, 03:15 PM)

looks like they finally decided to switch the priority to driving in order to seriously try to reach Victoria Crater

The current Festoon-Studies are the very necessary and important conclusion
of the intensive Erebus-studies but after that it's time for exploring new horizons again

Don't get too excited about the prospect of a rapid trip to Victoria just yet. As Squyres says, if they find something different and interesting at the Mogollon Rim they're not going to leave it behind unexamined.

My bet is it will be into March before they're done with Erebus completely.

Nirgal

Feb 2 2006, 12:53 AM

QUOTE (tacitus @ Feb 2 2006, 12:12 AM)

Don't get too excited about the prospect of a rapid trip to Victoria just yet. As Squyres says, if they find something different and interesting at the Mogollon Rim they're not going to leave it behind unexamined.

My bet is it will be into March before they're done with Erebus completely.

Yes D'Accord ! I, too think it's important to take all the time necessary to complete
the work at Erebus: may very well take another 4 weeks or so ...
What I'm looking forward too is that *after that* the Trip will go straight to Victoria
with prio one = driving and only stopping on really new discoveries

Tesheiner

Feb 2 2006, 08:46 AM

QUOTE (Nirgal @ Feb 2 2006, 01:53 AM)

What I'm looking forward too is that *after that* the Trip will go straight to Victoria
with prio one = driving and only stopping on really new discoveries

IMO they will follow an approach similar to Spirit's.

Bill Harris

Feb 2 2006, 11:04 AM

I will agree. If it hadn't been for the IDD problem we would have already been at the Mogollon Rim, finishing up and heading to the next target.

I can't see them _not_ stopping at the dark-toned bluff area at Mogollon; this feature is not like one we've seen before.

--Bill

Bill Harris

Feb 16 2006, 02:01 PM

Presented here is a 3x vertical exaggeration from jvandriel's Sol 733 Pancam stitch. The Mogollon Rim outcrop is on the right, Payson is on the left. Payson seems to be an interesting feature, note the small landslip on the left side.

One possible route may be a straight shot right of center to the dark float (outcrop).

Do you realize that we've been eyeballing this area since before Oppy hit the Erebus Highway? This site ought to be geo-nirvana...

--Bill

Bob Shaw

Feb 16 2006, 02:32 PM

Anyone know what the strategy is for Opportunity regarding winter, and how that translates into travel plans?

Bob Shaw

Tesheiner

Feb 16 2006, 02:45 PM

QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Feb 16 2006, 03:32 PM)

Anyone know what the strategy is for Opportunity regarding winter, and how that translates into travel plans?

Bob Shaw

Good question (Doug, take note of that for the next interview).

On this flat terrain the option of a "hill's north slope" is ... not an option, and I guess the winter will hit Oppy on the middle of the travel to Victoria.
How this translates on travel plans: maybe shorter drives due to less available energy, and imo more important, very careful driving when traversing by the dunes/ripples. Just think of what could happen after an aborted drive with a bad tilt?

Burmese

Feb 16 2006, 03:33 PM

http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn8730

"Jacob Matijevic, the rover mission team's chief of engineering, also at JPL, said if possible, the team would like Opportunity to winter in Victoria Crater, a large impact crater 2500 to 3000 metres away. "That would have the same benefit as we saw in our investigations of Endurance Crater," Matijevic says.

The journey to Victoria Crater is likely to take at least three months, he adds."

helvick

Feb 16 2006, 03:47 PM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Feb 16 2006, 02:45 PM)

Good question (Doug, take note of that for the next interview).

On this flat terrain the option of a "hill's north slope" is ... not an option, and I guess the winter will hit Oppy on the middle of the travel to Victoria.
How this translates on travel plans: maybe shorter drives due to less available energy, and imo more important, very careful driving when traversing by the dunes/ripples. Just think of what could happen after an aborted drive with a bad tilt?

Oppy has a slight benefit in terms of location at mid SH winter since it is so close to the equator (1.95deg S) vs Spirit at 14.57deg S. In practical terms this gives Oppy approximately 15% more insolation at mid winter. It also means that Oppy will have a slightly easier time finding optimal slopes from an insolation perspective, and finally the penalty for ending up in an unfavourable position is less than it will be for Spirit.

The precise amount of dust on the panels could still cause a major problem for either rover but all other things being equal Oppy has an easier environmental situation in SH winter time.

Bill Harris

Feb 16 2006, 03:49 PM

Also since this site a only a couple of degrees South of the equator there is not much difference between the mid-summer and mid-winter altitude of the Sun (62 and 68 degrees, respectively) so it might seem that a north-facing slope isn't critical. But given that these angles represent a loss of 47% and 37% based on ther cosine function, it might require some north-facing slopes to increase the solar incidence on the solar panels.

The big problem is the orbital eccentricity. Mars is some 19% farther from the Sun in the Martian Southern Winter (which we are approaching) so the sunlight will be less intense by xx% so some time on a north-facing slope may be needed to top up the batteries.

--Bill

djellison

Feb 16 2006, 03:51 PM

Power 19% further out will be 41% lower, I think

Doug

Phil Stooke

Feb 16 2006, 05:26 PM

Burmese quoted a story from New Scientist,

"the team would like Opportunity to winter in Victoria Crater"

Oh come on! There's no way. I'd like to see it, certainly, but it can't possibly get there until spring.

Phil

Tesheiner

Feb 16 2006, 05:35 PM

Not only that, but the rover would have to make the whole way around the crater to it's southern size (northern looking wall) AND find a path into the crater.

Toma B

Feb 16 2006, 06:59 PM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Feb 16 2006, 08:35 PM)

Not only that, but the rover would have to make the whole way around the crater to it's southern size (northern looking wall) AND find a path into the crater.

Oh, but we aren't going to Victoria just yet as Jim Bell says...

There are some more places around that they want to see, and maybe then they will decide that there are some more places nearby, after that there will be some more IDD to be done here, after that there will be some things that we have never seen before...
Opportunity will never reach Victoria Crater at this pace...PLEASE make up your mind and start DRIVING!!!

helvick

Feb 16 2006, 07:02 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Feb 16 2006, 03:51 PM)

Power 19% further out will be 41% lower, I think

The local microclimate and dust deposition\cleaning patterns are causing major differences at the moment it seems.New Scientist MER update.

QUOTE

Jones says in order to be productive during a sol, the rovers need at least 400 watt-hours. That amount of power allows an hour-long drive, a couple hours of robotic arm work or remote sensing and a daily data uplink to the Mars Odyssey spacecraft. To simply stay alive, they need about 280 watt-hours.

Spirit is currently operating with about 450 watt-hours per sol, but the available power has dropped by about 100 watt-hours over the past 50 sols, Jones says.
.....
The coming winter is less pressing for Opportunity, which is closer to the equator and is still operating with about 600 watt-hours of power each sol.

Time for me to go off and properly calculate some power curves for the onset of winter but my quick calculations tell me that Oppy will stay above about 330 whr throughout winter and has at least three months ahead when she should be able to manage an hour or more driving per sol. Spirit is losing between 10 and 15 whr per week at the moment so she really has to get to McCool hill within about 40 Sols or she risks getting stranded in a less than ideal spot unable to move.

Nirgal

Feb 16 2006, 07:45 PM

QUOTE (helvick @ Feb 16 2006, 08:02 PM)

Time for me to go off and properly calculate some power curves for the onset of winter

Thanks helvick !
I've been already anxiously waiting for your detailed update ... major concern was for Oppy not reaching the slopes of Victoria in time (whereas Spirit will have no problems to reach it's winter parking position)
... I thought it must come close to the 300 Watts "deadline" even for Oppy .... so the cited 330 W minimum for Oppy is encouraging ...
And, unfortunately, as for further cleaning events, as nice as they are, they are not something we can count on ...

Marcel

Feb 16 2006, 07:47 PM

B)-->

QUOTE(Toma B @ Feb 16 2006, 07:59 PM)

Opportunity will never reach Victoria Crater at this pace...PLEASE make up your mind and start DRIVING!!!

[/quote]

I can understand the frustration. I'd love to see the place as well: the possibility to reach it is there, and this will diminish every day that long drives south are postponed and mechanics and electronics are aging.

But (and it's said before often): This mission is not about pretty pictures, it's about science. About understanding what we see. Try to reconstruct what happened on this part of the surface. Relate morphology with rock/soil composition (while the cobalt source still radiates within workable levels, before it's out of operation), look for geologic context. And: do it as thoroughly as possible. This, combined with the knowledge that the quality of the scientific results is highly dependent on the quantity (that is: statistically reliable) AND te quality of the data (that is: complete, without forgetting to record just about everything that's within the capability of the instruments). And this costs time. A lot of it. And this is why we're not in Victoria (yet). It's a balance between continuing the trek across the line southward and feeding hunger for new terrain, and relating it to the knowledge that returning to a spot to fill a gap in the data is probably not going to be an option.

In other words: it's choosing between knowing some things for sure (like the prime target: pinning down water related processes), than a lot of things superficially.

Nirgal

Feb 16 2006, 08:16 PM

QUOTE (Marcel @ Feb 16 2006, 08:47 PM)

But (and it's said before often): This mission is not about pretty pictures, it's about science.

My feeling is that Victoria will offer both: "pretty pictures" *and* the most valuable science at the same time

just as it has been the case with the other long distance treks to Endurance, Columbia Hill Summit
and now Home Plate. Imagine we could be still turning every pebble at "Adirondack" but so far, each time we did take the "risk" of driving longer distances to new horizons, the reward has been a whole new chapter of discoveries there

Apart from accuracy and thouroughness It has always been also the Couriosity and the explorative spirit of trying new things and taking risks that have been the drving force behind science

helvick

Feb 16 2006, 08:29 PM

Victoria is apparently somewhere between 2500 and 3000m away depending on the route taken.

To see how realistic a target it is I'm making some assumptions:
1. Driving consumes approximately 100watts between the drive motors and navigation processing\imaging.
2. 0.5 cm/sec is a realistic speed for driving aggresively but with some care (so as to avoid another Purgatory).
3. Dust accumulation will cause additional power loss at a rate of 0.18% per Sol (this should be a worst case situation).
4. Oppy doesn't get stuck.
5. We start driving soon.

Opportunity should have enough power available over the next 94 sols (when power will drop just below 400 whr) to drive about 3300m.

To achieve that she would have to start soon and initially average around 50-60m per Sol. By the time she reaches Victoria she would be driving for about 18m per Sol.

I haven't factored in things like restricted Sols but there is a 10-30% margin in the above numbers depending on route and my calculations target reaching Victoria when power is still approx 400whr per Sol so she still has enough juice to do some real work\find a nice sunny ledge to park on for winter.

Marcel

Feb 16 2006, 08:37 PM

QUOTE (Nirgal @ Feb 16 2006, 09:16 PM)

Imagine we could be still turning every pebble at "Adirondack"

Which would make no sense, because there was nothing but volcanic rock there. Oppy however, is in a treamendous complex and interesting spot at the moment. This combined with the problems with her arm, and all the microscopic work makes that it's been a while around here. I must admit however, that continuing to another spot is about time.

djellison

Feb 16 2006, 08:44 PM

QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Feb 16 2006, 05:35 PM)

Not only that, but the rover would have to make the whole way around the crater to it's southern size (northern looking wall) AND find a path into the crater.

OR - outside the crater on the northern slope that approaches the rim ?

Remember the southern slope they had driving around the southern edge of endurance making Oppy very power-low (in SS's book)

Doug

Marz

Feb 16 2006, 10:48 PM

QUOTE (helvick @ Feb 16 2006, 02:29 PM)

Victoria is apparently somewhere between 2500 and 3000m away depending on the route taken.
.... To achieve that she would have to start soon and initially average around 50-60m per Sol. By the time she reaches Victoria she would be driving for about 18m per Sol.

Yikes! 50m/Sol is pretty aggressive around Erebus. Maybe if the dunes flatten out a bit. The manuevering up to Erebus was pretty darn slow, with few drives being more than 20m.

Well, as Daffy Duck would sing, "you never know where you're goin' till ya get there!"

Marslauncher

Feb 17 2006, 02:20 AM

So didnt I read that we should have had a drive? hope the pictures come down soon!

I am itching to see new pictures!

John Cooke

Shaka

Feb 17 2006, 03:49 AM

QUOTE (Marslauncher @ Feb 16 2006, 04:20 PM)

So didnt I read that we should have had a drive? hope the pictures come down soon!

I am itching to see new pictures!

John Cooke

There's an epidemic of that kind of pruritis, John. But the drive was aborted due to continuing arm stalls.

QUOTE

Sol 734: The plan for this sol was to stow the arm, drive about 36 meters (118 feet) to an area known as "Zane Grey," and unstow the arm. The arm stalled just before it reached the ready position (before stowing), and the drive did not occur.

Latest JPL update. Can anybody calculate where this Zane Grey is, 36m from our present position? Is it the black rubble pile or is it the rim proper?

bergadder

Feb 17 2006, 04:23 AM

QUOTE (Marcel @ Feb 16 2006, 02:47 PM)

--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Toma B @ Feb 16 2006, 07:59 PM)

</div><div class='quotemain'>
Opportunity will never reach Victoria Crater at this pace...PLEASE make up your mind and start DRIVING!!!

I can understand the frustration. I'd love to see the place as well: the possibility to reach it is there, and this will diminish every day that long drives south are postponed and mechanics and electronics are aging.

But (and it's said before often): This mission is not about pretty pictures, it's about science.

We also need to remember that there is another Science that must be covered, and that is the science of protecting the JPL budget from manned spaceflight. At this time when money is been diverted away from science, its time of a show for the public, senate and any oversite group on that budget. And I think a great show would be Victoria Crater. Risk/reward tough call...

Marslauncher

Feb 17 2006, 05:38 AM

I fully support science days and investigation, I am just as eager as every one else to move on however , is there any consensus as to a work around for the arm stalls?

Thanks

John Cooke