Some excellent points there. Does anyone know if (a) The MSL skycrane is likely to be a multi purpose design and ( what chance is there of Exomars considering it? The 2002 ExoMars\Netlander study specifies "inflatable technology" for the descent module, ie airbags.

Some further info on Exomars (also from the 2002 document available here so it maybe very out of date)
Total Rover landed mass 223kg.
Landing targets - 10-45deg latitudes (North or South).
Mission duration - 4months (main limiting factor appears to be Dust storm risk)

This proposal includes a relay orbiter and 4 netlander modules (stationary seismic\atmospheric probes with 0.5-1 year mission durations). I've seen no mention of the Netlanders in the current ESA announcements, do we know for certain that they have been canned?

Just an update. Note that an updated version (v2) of the Gurnett et al. paper, which is in press waiting for assignment to a later issue, was placed online at Science Express a couple of days ago. I haven't read v2, so I don't know what, if any, changes were made.

Radar Soundings of the Ionosphere of Mars
D.A. Gurnett et al.
Published online December 6, 2005; 10.1126/science.1121868 (Science Express Research Articles)
Abstract

What about the Terra Meridiani and Arabia Terra regions, as also listed by ESA? Isemenius Lacus too? Not mentioned in the ESA list, and I couldn't find it on the Mars maps I have, even looking at 34.0 N. Are there any others that you know of?

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/chan...ews/12055p2.xml :

"The baseline ExoMars mission calls for a lander and rover only, to be orbited by a Soyuz 2b from Kourou. But if funding allows, an orbiter will be added, and the launch switched to an Ariane 5."

The plan the ESA developed early this year called for such a cut-rate version of the lander (I imagine they'll rely on the US orbiters for a lot of their com relay). What I have not seen yet is any indication that they're considering switching to Skycrane. Keep in mind that ExoMars is supposed to be distinctly smaller than MSL, and so they might be able to make airbags work -- although both MERs were so seriously limited in their possible landing sites because of predicted high winds, and Spirit came so close to buying the farm anyway, that I imagine they're having second thoughts.

I wouldn't mind seeing Colin Pillinger's organics package on ExoMars -- he may have been a disastrously poor judge of lander design, but his central instrument package looks well-designed to me. (By the way, the poor bastard has just been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.)

That is terrible news. I have a lot of respect for Pillingers scientific capability - it's wll beyond my capability to even begin to criticize but I am familiar with project management and he's not good at that. Unfortunately making good science happen often requires that good scientists also need to be good PM's and thats's a very rare combination.

Beagle2 had a lot of scientifically excellent components both from a scientific scope\capability point of view and from an engineering perspective. Exomars could definitely benefit from taking quite a lot of Beagle2's instrumentation as is. We'll have to wait and see but I would not be unhappy to see Exomars equipped with some variation of the Beagle2 claw.

I described those 4 sites because the paper had pictures and coordinates for them.

Meridiani we know something of already. Arabia is a big place on Mars and no site was specified (unless it is Bcquerel), same with some other places mantioned - Xanthe, Isidis, Luna and Hellas. These are all very small deposits, apparently.

Becquerel is an interesting spot though, it hosts the infamous "White Rock" deposit, as well as these clays. White rock is very rough, but the craster floor is smooth, at lot will depend on how accurate the landing system is I guess, and how well it copes with hazzards.

Isemenius Lacus is a classic dark albedo feature. The nearest "real" feature is Isemeniae Fossae. The clay patch seems to be in the middle of the crater Focas.

With respect to ExoMars, there seemed to be quite a bit of support for the idea of equipping it with a PAW at the April EGU. Plus my recollection is that the airbags being considered are the so-called "deadbeat" type, that almost immediately deflate on impact, rather like those of a car. Since the CEV is supposed to have this type as well it suggests that this approach can handle much heavier loads than the bouncing type.

Jon

"Becquerel is an interesting spot though, it hosts the infamous "White Rock" deposit..."

Becquerel has a white-rock like deposit, but not "White Rock" That is located in a crater in Sabeaus Sinus, east of Sinus Meridiani and East of the Schiaparelli Basin. There are a number of craters in the Oxia Palus region east into Arabia that contain erodable layered deposits. Henry Crater in Arabia has the largest, there's another smaller one nearby. The White Rock deposit is much more noticable than the others, as it's in a low albedo region and has high contrast with the dark more or less basaltic sands in those regions. The others are in intermediate to high albedo regions.

I have another concern on ExoMars telecommunication capability since it will carry only UHF and it will be relying on American-European orbiters for the communications.

It is lacking the redundancy for any emercengy. I think ExoMars must bring another telecom equipment as a Low Gain Antena (Beacon Mode) in which it would be very useful for just in the case of any emergency that any orbibers are available or disponible for any reason. By incorporating the HGA would be much better but it is up to the ESA to evaluate about the benefits and costs. According to MER experience, the HGA was not very much utilized (less than 3% of cases).

The additional weigth and cost will be compensated by the robustness of the mission.

Rodolfo

Come '11, there will be MRO (almost certainly), MEX (almost certainly), MO (probably) and potentially another orbiter at Mars. Relay capacity isnt going to be a problem imho.

I agree though - DTE tones during EDL are VITAL.

Doug

From a programmatic standpoint, yes (i.e., for future missions). However, EDL telemetry, whether DTE or relayed to Earth via orbiters (with latency, of course), has very little if any operational value for that particular mission.

This gives more reason to think that, if MRO fails, they'll delay MSL till 2011 and fly a replacement MRO instead in 2009. However, Nick Appleby told me at AGU that NASA still very much wants to fly MSL on schedule -- it's their current "sacred cow" (to quote the COMPLEX meeting) -- and he also said that if a repeat MRO should be necessary, replacements of some instruments such as CRISM couldn't be built by 2009.

Let's hope that doesn't happen, if for no other reason than to spare Dan McCleese et al. from having to build a fourth instrument for his atmospheric investigation. Two PMIRR instruments lost on Mars Observer and Mars Climate Orbiter, with the replacement, an upgraded version called Mars Climate Sounder, now en route aboard MRO.

Yes, poor McCleese must be feeling like Sisyphus at this point -- he keeps getting that rock rolled ALMOST all the way to the summit before it rolls all the way back down again.

So far there is absolutely no indication that MRO will fail -- all its major systems have been tried out, and Doug McCuistion said it's working better than any in-flight spacecraft in his experience. (The only slight problem was noise in one of HiRISE's 10 channels, which vanished when it fully warmed up.) But then, Mars Observer worked very well all the way to Mars, too...

The official plan now is to include exactly ONE Netlander-type payload on the mission -- which will be carried on the same lander as the rover, and then left behind at the landing site. (It will, however, also include heat flow measurements.) See my new entry on the ExoMars thread in the "Past and Future" section.

Thanks ed, I stand corrected.

Jon

If MRO fails, McCleese might have reason to be paranoid!

Another good clay article posted yesterday on Scientific American:

Martian Claymation
An ancient, watery Mars was not always an acid bath

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa...35983414B7F0000

Again about the carbonates though, what about the traces that Spirit saw at the beginning of the mission and the trace levels seen globally from orbit, as mentioned in the same MER update from 2004? I posted the link before, would have to find it again now...