This is for all you PhDs out there looking over MS theses: got some serious trouble here. Mine is in its 23rd draft, my main advisor is on vacation until Sept 10th, and my secondary hit me last week (finally, ater three weeks) with 5 pages of comments, which I just resolved today (I hope). I'm supposed to graduate on Sept 20, and was told that the accepted thesis processing time is 10 calendar days. Should also mention that out of a class of 23, only 3, in the words of the school, are "expected to graduate on time"...and I'm one of them (?!)

Two questions:

1. Is this sort of crunch-time nonsense normal?

2. What are the best ways to minimize endless back-and-forth? (Many if not all the comments were valid; problem is reaching a consensus remotely, since I'm geographically separated from the school).

If anybody has any tips to make this easier & faster, I'm all ears. As is, definitely not traveling to Monterey, CA just to walk through a silly ceremony & get a blank diploma; want this whole damn thing to be done. Again, any advice at all from those who have been there would be greatly appreciated!!!

Hi nprev,

My general impression is that although this kind of stuff doesn't happen to everybody, it -- or worse! -- happens often enough that it's pretty much normal. I think the only thing you can do is to be a pest to your advisors -- email, call, call their assistants until you get what you need out of them. You've got a valid reason to be a pest for the next 10 calendar days. Hang in there, and good luck.

--Emily

Thanks for the insight, advice, kind words, and encouragement, Emily!

It's a mess; thought it was just the college itself (Naval Postgraduate School), but apparently this is a truly institutional problem. Hell, there are still people from two cohorts back that haven't finished their theses & graduated; don't want to be in that situation!!!

I agree with Emily. Sounds normal to me, which is kind of sad, when you think about it. When I was trying to get all of my paperwork taken care of a few days before my graduation, I found out that I was never actually listed as a PhD candidate with the graduate college. To me, this didn't really make any real difference, but you might imagine that the paper pushers had another view of that. Ugh...

Just hang in there and like Emily said, you have a right to be a pest at this point.

Best of luck.

Thanks, Tglotch; appreciate the understanding and affirmation! I've been spamming my advisors for immediate feedback & demanding their home & cel numbers; let's see if they respond.

It's a futile question, but why save all this crap for the most crucial stage of the entire cirriculum? Also, why the hell was my (and several others) prime thesis advisor even allowed to take three weeks of leave prior to graduation?! The system seems to be set up for failure.

I already decided that nohow, no way am I going for a PhD, and my hat's off to you for running that gauntlet!

I have no experience of this precise thesis problem, but a fair amount of experience of getting papers past referees and of being a referee myself.
As for crunch time, yes, no matter how long time it takes from submission to publication (and it can be several years), you never get more than a few weeks to re-write and re-submit. And from the other side, you usually don't get much more time as a referee either.

As for the comments, I suggest You incorrporate those that you think are valid, and write back clearly stating the reasons You don't agree with the others. This will usually be accepted in my experience.

Great idea, TTY! Last night I just threw it over the fence back to them; incorporated probably 90% of their comments, but basically ignored those I disagreed with.

Thanks VERY much;now I can take some positive (hopefully) action!

This doesn't really help your situation, but such things happen in real life.

When I worked at a defense contractor, we would submit failure analyses to the Air Force for comments, and then revise accordingly.

We might submit conclusions a, b, c, d, and e for a particular problem, and get a reponse that d is flawed and needs more work. We would regroup our engineers, and beat out a new d and resubmit the report.

Comment would then follow that b is problematic too.

Well, b was OK on the first submittal, nothing about either take on d impacted b, so I would decline to do anything to b at that point, it having been clearly 'grandfathered' by the lack of comments made when d was brought to our attention.


I wound up getting yelled at by some very high ranking Air Force Officers.



Live and learn.

...who knew considerably less about the issue than you did. Yeah, I see that game unfold daily at work; now I know where they learned to play it...

EDIT: BTW, love your new avatar...Opus as Spock...too cool!

For my first graduate degree, I was the only one in my entering class to survive the process, and I did so by a combination of hard work. The graduate chair kept throwing my work back at me, but I found a way to work around it, and I managed to graduate. A lot of the resistance I faced was caused by the fact that I was completing a two year degree in a year and a half, and they were wanting to retain my services as a graduate teaching assistant for another semester.

I was given a bit of advice when I entered the program, and there is some truth to it. Graduate school isn't about how smart or accomplished you are, it is about how much shit you can take. Hang in there!

Now those were some words from one who has been there! Thanks, Ted; doing my best.

Submitted draft #26 of the thesis today after ElkGroveDan told me to get my ass out of the house & into someplace that had real air conditioning, which was extremely good advice; seems that my cerebrum locks up when ambient temps exceed 90 deg F. Let's see if the powers-that-be can accept this one with few if any modifications...

nprev: as an older graduate student, you shouldn't have quite as hard a time of it, though. If you already had a career at least partly related to your studies, the profs ought to cut you some slack. That was my experience, anyway. But I only sought a Master's, not a Ph.D.

--Greg

This is just a master's as well, Greg (no way will I go for a PhD, ever!!!) My whole class is actually older grad students, mostly active-duty mid-grade Navy & Air Force officers with engineering backgrounds.

The school seems to be playing it just like Ted described, though; nobody seems to be getting much slack. Last night, I found out that one of the other "likely to finish" people officially submitted a thesis extension until Dec, so he's out of there...so now we're down to two!

Because this is what will instill the bitter edge necessary for advanced degree completion.

No one comes out of a graduate program with the same gentle personality they went in with.

-Mike

There, see? All I need is a good reason, and I'm happy! Thanks, Mike.

"Whom gods destroy, they first make mad..." (Goethe?)

Actually, it's attributed to Euripides.

Thanks, TC. Wonder if Euripides ever got his thesis done...

Euripides ? Not even God managed that ...

Nprev: I wish you luck with it. I just got my Masters (in Computer Science and Engineering) from University of Washington three months ago. Quite an adventure doing this in our 40's, no?

--Greg

TC, that was perfect... Thanks!

Greg, BIG congrats on your recent achievement, and thanks. "Adventure" is surely one way to put it; completely unnecessary extra cardiac stress on old dudes is another...

However, just got some terrific news a little while ago from my second reader, who hit me with all the comments (names edited for privacy):

Nick,

It looks fine at this point. Still to come are the reviews by Professor O--- (due to return next week from his leave) and then Chairman O---. Chairman O--- will be looking for a strong Abstract and Executive Summary. These two sections must clearly point out the benefits of your thesis and your methodology. There are missing references that need to now be included.

With Kindest Regards,

Gary L---


Is that actually LIGHT I see at the end of this tunnel????? It don't even look like a train!

Q: Will your research make the world a better place?

A: http://www.futurama-area.de/LiH/OComics/16.gif

-Mike

...I'm dyin', that's great, Mike!!! Definitely don't wanna be "the bitterest person in the world"...

Added all the references, polished it up...draft 29 now in Their Hands, hopefully the last one. Time to drink beer now...

Speaking of Euripides, what did the greek guy say to the dry-cleaner when he took his pants in for cleaning?

Euripides... Eumenides!

(shamelessly adapted from Frasier)

But a free PhD to anyone who spots the UMSF connection.

Phil

Okay, that had to be ElkGroveDan that added the Homer/Beer (...mmm) image to my last!

Phil, that is both a great line & a poser! Something to do with Saturn, I think, but can't resolve it further...couldn't be because I'm drinkin' beer now, of course...

Damn...WAG, here: Pioneer Rock?

Eumenides is an Athenian (Greek) tragedy that supposedly is the first historical reference to Saturn having rings, or so the argument goes. Since the writer Aeschylus refers to the god Saturn as "being held in chains" the assumption is made that these chains must refer to the rings of the planet Saturn -- 2500 years ago, over 2000 years before the first telescopes were constructed.

<ashamed>With the handicap of unvolunteeringly reading the names in greek, I seem to miss the joke.
Could someone please help ? </ashamed>

With so many creatures bound in chains and sent to Tartarus in the greek theogony,
the galaxy should be filled with ringed planetary bodys

Well, no PhDs here... it's not Saturn. But admittedly, as befits a joke of mine, it is only a most pathetically weak UMSF link.

Phil

Something to to with ripping and mending? a solar panel perhaps??

Hey Phil. I was correct, and that was a darn interesting connection I might add. If I don't get the goatskin, I at least deserve the hat.

Well, hint hint - it's on Mars, and a UMSF member actually suggested landing there at one point...

Phil

Are you referring to the yardangs of the Eumenides Dorsum region of Mars?

After Phil's clarifications, I suggest a small addition :

Euclides. Euripides ?... Eumenides!

Yes, that's good!

And congratulations to ElkGroveDan, Ph.D., for tracking down Eumenides Dorsum. The original UMSF connection I thought of was just "it's a place on Mars" - pretty lame - but then I found that UMSF's Tim53 proposed this area as a landing site back in 1994 at the Pathfinder Landing Site Workshop.



Phil

Gosh that was easy. I can't imagine why all the moaning and complaining from nprev.

-ElkGroveDan, Ph.D., College of Mars, Stooke University, 2007
(or is it Stooke State? Phil U.? PSU?)

It's the Stooke University of Canadian Knowledge and Extraterrestrial Rambling.

Enjoy!

Phil

That would be the best acronym, ever!

And I'm just now finding out about this wonderful institution???!?!!! Wish somebody woulda told me like three years ago...

That settles it. Moving to Canada right after I graduate. Maybe I can get a job as a team mascot for Phil's school!

Yes, our mascot is a sleazy cigar-smoking robot.

Phil

Dammit...I KNEW a cush job like that had to be taken already!!! Well, I can out-sleaze & out-cheap on stogies any robot in the house!!!

Thesis update: Just found out today I had to submit the damn thing to the "thesis processor"...who threw it back to me about an hour later with a whole buncha formatting comments. Argh. Also, the main advisor finally came back to work today, so gotta wait for the shoe to drop from him...

Long night ahead--just got home--and gotta work tomorrow. Later, buds!

...and after five years of struggle in the lab, the last hour panic as I'd gotten a final signature from a professor NOT supposed to be on my committee (oopska), the paniced run-around to get the change-committee form filled out with all the required signatures, then the final sweaty trek down to the thesis filing office, with the final format check...

..and after all that effort, time, money, stress, all of it...the main administrator of the thesis office held my tome - the culmination of my doctoral research and said:

"OK, looks good. Would you like a cookie?"

while holding up a plate of cookies someone had brought into the office that day.

And it was the best cookie I ever ate.

-Mike

Mike, you'll probably appreciate this e-mail I just got after finally checking my personal, rather than work account:

Dear Nicholas,

I just tried calling you but your line was busy. I have reviewed your thesis and both Prof. L--- and I are satisfied with your final version, so please send it to the thesis processor, if you haven’t already done so, get the signature sheets signed off ( I believe that Mark R--- handles this) and complete any other required final steps.


Sincerely,

John O---


END GAME!!! Back to format twiddling...and, by God, I'm gonna buy me a random cookie when this is all done & eat it in your honor, Mike. Can't imagine what a PhD is like after this humble MS...

Same crap...

...only Piled Higher and Deeper.



(Congrats!)

-Mike

Always heard "piled higher and deeper"...never truly appreciated it till now! My admiration of you guys is greatly enhanced, for having the persistence & patience to go through this to that degree.

Ah yes...formatting...I remember that well, although not fondly...if it makes you feel any better, I think it only took about 15 minutes for my dissertation to get bounced back to me with a "this time read the manual" note. They have a 60 page manual for formatting! Turns out that content is only half the battle.

as for piled higher and deeper...I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with this, but for those that aren't, it definitely helped get me through grad school: http://www.phdcomics.com

We didn't have a manual. They just expected us to know what it was they were wanting. Unfortunately, my crystal ball was in the shop for repairs, so that made life difficult

...that's a great strip!!! Thanks, TGlotch; whole lot of truth in this gem!

And, for anyone bored enough to be following the current comic strip that is my life right now, just got this from the dreaded Thesis Processor/Format Fanatic (spent a lot of time with her on the phone today):

Hi Nicholas-this is ready now to be converted to PDF which I will do.
Is this the final copy? I also need you to complete the special
abstract
and email it back to me as well. I have attached a copy. You also
need
to sign and complete the thesis release form and your advisors need to
sign this as well.

Nancy S---

...it's damn near over.

Just signed the last form, e-mailed the last bit of it...it's freakin' DONE!!!

Thanks to all my UMSF buds for the laughs & support...I graduate a week from today!

Congratulations, Nick!!!!!

Once you finally graduate -- THEN it's time for a few beers! Wish I could join you.

-the other Doug

Take a break, you earned it!