This isn't nuts...this is super nuts. We are on a supposed bee-line drive back to Duck Bay, and they stop for a long time at a bunch of curious and unusually colored rocks. No one is posting wild speculations, no one is posting insider information...nothing...
Why have the MER topics been so quiet lately?
Full Version: Quiet UMSF
This whole forum is very quiet for a couple of months. It will probably be dead when both MERs die before Phoenix and MSL.
Analyst
Analyst
Thought I should start a thread on this - Analyst sent me a PM a few weeks ago criticising my decision to limit political debate here and making the same comment he makes here - that without MER, UMSF would be dead. I thought it appropriate to share some statistics and explain that UMSF is not just MER, comment on the current level of activity and the decisions that possibly mould this activity.
In April there were 1966 posts. A small number maybe. Certainly smaller than the average of Nov 05 to Nov 06 (3-5,000). I've spoken to some other forum admins and they share the same pattern - long time period variation. We had a big peak after MRO arrived and Opportunity arrived at Victoria Crater. There will be one when Phoenix arrives.
Is UMSF getting quieter. Yes. Is that a bad thing? Well - from the admin perspective, no. Easier to mange! Trying to keep up with a forum of >4000 posts a month was too much. I've also seen a downturn in MER discussions in other places. The missions themselves have got quieter. We're not rushing to Victoria or climbing Husband hill. Personally, I'm not keeping up with MER as much or as well as I did a year ago - I just can't.
Does this mean I should have allowed political debate as Analyst tells me I should? No. I will not allow that to infect this place as it does others. You can see the damage it does there and even the overly heated debates that happened here. Want to discuss politics there are PLENTY of other places to do that. This is a small subject area, a small group of people, cliquey even. I'm not going to prostitute the focus and standards of UMSF just to make it busier. I've made some very difficult decisions regarding some members at UMSF in the past - and the only regret I've had with ANY of them, is that I didn't take the action more quickly (and yes - that includes Bruce).
Will UMSF be dead and burried once MER is gone? No. Not even slightly.
Comet Missions 458,000 topic views
Titan 337,000 topic views
Icy Moons 328,000 topic views
Past and Future 270,000 topic views
New Horizons 266,000 topic views
Cumulatively - those subjects have attracted 500,000 more views than Spirit. Add the tech-general and imagery section you're at the same level as Opportunity.
Of the 7.7 million topic views that have happened in the history of UMSF - less than half are within the scope of MER. Suggesting that UMSF would be dead if MER vanished tomorrow is simply not true. But if the admin team vanished tomorrow and a free-for-all followed, the political debate that Analyst wants in this place - UMSF would be dead within a month. Of the 1000+ members here, only 10 have any idea what it takes to run this place. Checking registrations, checking for spam, editing posts with bad quoting, taking big images out of posts and making them links, taking backups of the 400 MB SQL DB and the 2.5 gig of attachments.
Someone once asked here how much time I spent running this place, and jokingly - I said "Oh thousands" to which they replied that that was impossible. I've just done the maths. Since Jan 04 - I would say that I have spent about 3000 hours doing all the things I mentioned - and others ( such as getting ad's that mean UMSF is just about paying for itself ). And you know what - even with people telling me I'm doing it all wrong (and thankfully I get a lot more people telling me I'm doing it right as well) I do not begrudge a single second of it - not a single second. I don't think the admin team do either.
Doug
In April there were 1966 posts. A small number maybe. Certainly smaller than the average of Nov 05 to Nov 06 (3-5,000). I've spoken to some other forum admins and they share the same pattern - long time period variation. We had a big peak after MRO arrived and Opportunity arrived at Victoria Crater. There will be one when Phoenix arrives.
Is UMSF getting quieter. Yes. Is that a bad thing? Well - from the admin perspective, no. Easier to mange! Trying to keep up with a forum of >4000 posts a month was too much. I've also seen a downturn in MER discussions in other places. The missions themselves have got quieter. We're not rushing to Victoria or climbing Husband hill. Personally, I'm not keeping up with MER as much or as well as I did a year ago - I just can't.
Does this mean I should have allowed political debate as Analyst tells me I should? No. I will not allow that to infect this place as it does others. You can see the damage it does there and even the overly heated debates that happened here. Want to discuss politics there are PLENTY of other places to do that. This is a small subject area, a small group of people, cliquey even. I'm not going to prostitute the focus and standards of UMSF just to make it busier. I've made some very difficult decisions regarding some members at UMSF in the past - and the only regret I've had with ANY of them, is that I didn't take the action more quickly (and yes - that includes Bruce).
Will UMSF be dead and burried once MER is gone? No. Not even slightly.
Comet Missions 458,000 topic views
Titan 337,000 topic views
Icy Moons 328,000 topic views
Past and Future 270,000 topic views
New Horizons 266,000 topic views
Cumulatively - those subjects have attracted 500,000 more views than Spirit. Add the tech-general and imagery section you're at the same level as Opportunity.
Of the 7.7 million topic views that have happened in the history of UMSF - less than half are within the scope of MER. Suggesting that UMSF would be dead if MER vanished tomorrow is simply not true. But if the admin team vanished tomorrow and a free-for-all followed, the political debate that Analyst wants in this place - UMSF would be dead within a month. Of the 1000+ members here, only 10 have any idea what it takes to run this place. Checking registrations, checking for spam, editing posts with bad quoting, taking big images out of posts and making them links, taking backups of the 400 MB SQL DB and the 2.5 gig of attachments.
Someone once asked here how much time I spent running this place, and jokingly - I said "Oh thousands" to which they replied that that was impossible. I've just done the maths. Since Jan 04 - I would say that I have spent about 3000 hours doing all the things I mentioned - and others ( such as getting ad's that mean UMSF is just about paying for itself ). And you know what - even with people telling me I'm doing it all wrong (and thankfully I get a lot more people telling me I'm doing it right as well) I do not begrudge a single second of it - not a single second. I don't think the admin team do either.
Doug
First of all, well said Doug. The idea that UMSF would perish if - sob... when - the rovers eventually bleep their last - is just silly, what with probes en-route to Pluto and Mercury, orbiting Saturn, limping back to Earth and whirling around Mars too. But as you said, if you or any of the other people who keep the good ship UMSF afloat decided to jump into a lifeboat then the ship would go down very quickly. So, again, thank you to you and all the Unseen who make this meeting place possible, and such a joy to be a part of.
Speaking personally I feel like the Mars surface activity - and, consequently, commenting on it - has slowed considerably recently. Spirit is limping around Homeplate like a grandad, and Oppy is clearly dragging her wheels too, reluctant to enter Victoria.. no, seriously, they're just making sure that they miss nothing important before heading in, which is fair enough, because you can guarantee that they'd be criticised for missing out anything interesting-looking en-route back to Duck Bay. And really there aren't any stunning pic opportunities at the mo, nothing startling new anyway. I've personally been posting a lot of images, when time allowed, but they've drawn little comment from anyone, a sign that either people don't think they're that good compared to other people's, or members are currently just dipping in and out of UMSF, looking at things, checking if anything exciting has happened since their last visit, and then getting back to their real lives. Which is fair enough.
The recent thread dealing with the dark streaks ground to a sudden halt when disapproval was expressed with the nature of the celebrations at the conclusion of the debate, which I thought was a shame because I thought it was all just good natured fun, and it did rather pee on the bonfire of the people who had, inbetween the larking about, actually spent a lot of time into discussing the issue and had worked hard on the images, but that's history now. I think things can get a bit serious sometimes, we need a bit more of a laugh now and again, but I'm not in charge so fair enough, and I know a fine line has to be drawn to prevent UMSF degenerating into - well, we all know what; the survival of UMSF as the place it is now is all important. But, speaking personally, I did feel a bit less keen to post things for a few days after that. My problem tho. ( And maybe if there'd been more Rosetta images available for us to drool over and discuss posting activity would have been even higher, but my thoughts on that are well known so I'll just shut the hell up about it!
)
I also don't think it's helped that we're able to see previews of forthcoming Cassini radar passes of Titan when the results of several old ones haven't been released yet; that backlog is a data dam waiting to burst, you'll see.
Patience young jedi... patience... quiet it may be now, but soon return the storm shall...
Speaking personally I feel like the Mars surface activity - and, consequently, commenting on it - has slowed considerably recently. Spirit is limping around Homeplate like a grandad, and Oppy is clearly dragging her wheels too, reluctant to enter Victoria.. no, seriously, they're just making sure that they miss nothing important before heading in, which is fair enough, because you can guarantee that they'd be criticised for missing out anything interesting-looking en-route back to Duck Bay. And really there aren't any stunning pic opportunities at the mo, nothing startling new anyway. I've personally been posting a lot of images, when time allowed, but they've drawn little comment from anyone, a sign that either people don't think they're that good compared to other people's, or members are currently just dipping in and out of UMSF, looking at things, checking if anything exciting has happened since their last visit, and then getting back to their real lives. Which is fair enough.
The recent thread dealing with the dark streaks ground to a sudden halt when disapproval was expressed with the nature of the celebrations at the conclusion of the debate, which I thought was a shame because I thought it was all just good natured fun, and it did rather pee on the bonfire of the people who had, inbetween the larking about, actually spent a lot of time into discussing the issue and had worked hard on the images, but that's history now. I think things can get a bit serious sometimes, we need a bit more of a laugh now and again, but I'm not in charge so fair enough, and I know a fine line has to be drawn to prevent UMSF degenerating into - well, we all know what; the survival of UMSF as the place it is now is all important. But, speaking personally, I did feel a bit less keen to post things for a few days after that. My problem tho. ( And maybe if there'd been more Rosetta images available for us to drool over and discuss posting activity would have been even higher, but my thoughts on that are well known so I'll just shut the hell up about it!
) I also don't think it's helped that we're able to see previews of forthcoming Cassini radar passes of Titan when the results of several old ones haven't been released yet; that backlog is a data dam waiting to burst, you'll see.
Patience young jedi... patience... quiet it may be now, but soon return the storm shall...
I like UMSF the way it is. Minimal politics. It's hard to eliminate politics completely. Without funding, there would be no umsf. Discussion of umsf budget cuts, discussion of ESA public outreach, etc. are appropos.
Doug, I'm delighted to hear that you have in mind an extended extended mission for UMSF. Stu, your images are much appreciated. There's just too much wonderful stuff here to keep saying thank you for it all. I don't think we're going to run out of things to talk about any time soon.
I totally agree with the limits imposed to politics in this forum but I what I would give for a new abyss... 
Cool new things on the horizon, though. Dawn's gonna launch next month, Messenger will be making its first Mercury flyby soon, and let's not forget Phoenix...good times, good times!
UMSF is a godsend for those of us old enough to remember the virtual mission drought of the 80s...to say nothing of the difficulty back then getting ANY information at all most of the time other than a ten-second blurb on the evening news. Thanks again, Doug & admins for all you do to keep this special place for us!
UMSF is a godsend for those of us old enough to remember the virtual mission drought of the 80s...to say nothing of the difficulty back then getting ANY information at all most of the time other than a ten-second blurb on the evening news. Thanks again, Doug & admins for all you do to keep this special place for us!
I agree with Doug et al. Remember the vast amounts of attention Hayabusa had when it arrived at Itokawa.
I'm someone who sees the world in political terms -- I was just barely in school when John Kennedy was assassinated, I was in college when Nixon resigned, and the stuff that went down between those two events (including both the zenith of Apollo and the nadir of Vietnam) forever and indelibly shaped my perceptions. Political insights occur to me all the time, and it can be difficult to edit them out of my stream of consciousness as I comment on nearly anything.
That said, Doug and the admin staff have toed a very fine line with great aplomb and delicacy. Yes, there *are* some areas in which politics influence and even shape the course of UMSF, and a small subset (funding decisions, public outreach efforts and data sharing, to name a few) *are* within the bounds of this discussion. But, as Doug and others have said, there are many, many other places for that discourse to give vent to underlying political thought, theory and practice. And since such discourse tends to get, well, acrimonious and is not in keeping with the engineering and scientific discussions and speculations for which this site is known, it is completely fitting and proper for Doug and the admins to take whetever steps are required to keep it off of this site.
Remember, this is coming from someone who has to apply more self-editing than most to keep from pointing out the links I see between UMSF and politics... This has actually helped me in honing my skills as a writer and a curmudgeon. Those insights I actually do explore here go through an extensive review process in my own mind, to ensure that I'm commenting on basic processes of human societies (as they relate to grand and grandiose societal efforts such as the exploration of space) and not just the ideological differences between political systems or points of view.
I especially applaud Doug, in specific, for firmly insisitng that unmanned spaceflight can be celebrated and discussed without the need for constant comparison with the other side of the coin, manned spaceflight. There are fora out there that I simply cannot visit without raising my blood pressure to unhealthy levels, since they are founded primarily to advance agendas I find hateful... there are people right here at UMSF with whom I would probably get into violent arguments were such agendas allowed free reign, and I (and lots of others) would thus miss out on all of the wondrous things we *do* discuss.
I think one sign that Doug and the admins are doing the right things is the respect this site has earned amongst those who are actually planning, preparing and flying the missions. To see the same names here that we see in the author credits of articles in peer-reviewed journals, informally discussing their thoughts as they advance our understanding of the Cosmos, is a heady and invaluable experience. And hey -- when the PI of a major outer solar system probe refers to *us* specifically on a nationally televised documentary, showing pages of our own forum while speaking of the value of us, "the bloggers" (funny, I never thought of myself as a blogger prior to that), that is an especially sweet reward. (BTW, Doug, did Alan or the Discovery Channel people have to ask permission to televise images of the website, or is it in public domain?)
It's not about the snob appeal of hearing some scientist refer to this site as being at an exceptionally high level. It's not about using every rock in your path as a platform to push you own agendas. It's about having a safe, relatively friendly, forgiving but scientifically stringent band of brothers (and sisters!) with whom to share our thoughts and speculations. And I wouldn't trade that for all the tea in China. (Of course, speaking of China and tea prices... oops! Never mind!
)
-the other Doug
That said, Doug and the admin staff have toed a very fine line with great aplomb and delicacy. Yes, there *are* some areas in which politics influence and even shape the course of UMSF, and a small subset (funding decisions, public outreach efforts and data sharing, to name a few) *are* within the bounds of this discussion. But, as Doug and others have said, there are many, many other places for that discourse to give vent to underlying political thought, theory and practice. And since such discourse tends to get, well, acrimonious and is not in keeping with the engineering and scientific discussions and speculations for which this site is known, it is completely fitting and proper for Doug and the admins to take whetever steps are required to keep it off of this site.
Remember, this is coming from someone who has to apply more self-editing than most to keep from pointing out the links I see between UMSF and politics...
This has actually helped me in honing my skills as a writer and a curmudgeon. Those insights I actually do explore here go through an extensive review process in my own mind, to ensure that I'm commenting on basic processes of human societies (as they relate to grand and grandiose societal efforts such as the exploration of space) and not just the ideological differences between political systems or points of view.I especially applaud Doug, in specific, for firmly insisitng that unmanned spaceflight can be celebrated and discussed without the need for constant comparison with the other side of the coin, manned spaceflight. There are fora out there that I simply cannot visit without raising my blood pressure to unhealthy levels, since they are founded primarily to advance agendas I find hateful... there are people right here at UMSF with whom I would probably get into violent arguments were such agendas allowed free reign, and I (and lots of others) would thus miss out on all of the wondrous things we *do* discuss.
I think one sign that Doug and the admins are doing the right things is the respect this site has earned amongst those who are actually planning, preparing and flying the missions. To see the same names here that we see in the author credits of articles in peer-reviewed journals, informally discussing their thoughts as they advance our understanding of the Cosmos, is a heady and invaluable experience. And hey -- when the PI of a major outer solar system probe refers to *us* specifically on a nationally televised documentary, showing pages of our own forum while speaking of the value of us, "the bloggers" (funny, I never thought of myself as a blogger prior to that), that is an especially sweet reward. (BTW, Doug, did Alan or the Discovery Channel people have to ask permission to televise images of the website, or is it in public domain?)
It's not about the snob appeal of hearing some scientist refer to this site as being at an exceptionally high level. It's not about using every rock in your path as a platform to push you own agendas. It's about having a safe, relatively friendly, forgiving but scientifically stringent band of brothers (and sisters!) with whom to share our thoughts and speculations. And I wouldn't trade that for all the tea in China. (Of course, speaking of China and tea prices... oops! Never mind!
)-the other Doug
QUOTE (dvandorn @ May 21 2007, 03:26 PM) 
(BTW, Doug, did Alan or the Discovery Channel people have to ask permission to televise images of the website, or is it in public domain?)
No one actually asked - but seriously - as if we'd mind
Doug
I have lately not been very occupied with the forum... life got in the way too much these past months. I've barely managed to keep up a steady rate of working on a new website and new material and have been picking up my personal photography a lot too; taking mosaics in the centre of town in the middle of the night and crazy stuff like that (another website in progress).
It's been a hell of a year so far searching for a new home (which in the meantime we've found) and right now I'm struggling to get my workplace the way I want (I have 9 square meters to stuff with computers and Mars
)
I must even admit to Doug that I haven't made time in a while for administrative tasks around here.
Don't kick me for that yet..
But I have noticed the silence with MER. Well, we've come a long way to Victoria, we've been a long time parked at some rocks at Gusev... I'm sure there will be a lot of activity again when Oppy enters Victoria and Spirit starts telling us more and more about Home Plate. This forum is certainly not going to die because of MER. The 'right' spirit is right here and there's lots of exciting missions in the future!
Nico
It's been a hell of a year so far searching for a new home (which in the meantime we've found) and right now I'm struggling to get my workplace the way I want (I have 9 square meters to stuff with computers and Mars
)I must even admit to Doug that I haven't made time in a while for administrative tasks around here.
Don't kick me for that yet..But I have noticed the silence with MER. Well, we've come a long way to Victoria, we've been a long time parked at some rocks at Gusev... I'm sure there will be a lot of activity again when Oppy enters Victoria and Spirit starts telling us more and more about Home Plate. This forum is certainly not going to die because of MER. The 'right' spirit is right here and there's lots of exciting missions in the future!
Nico
QUOTE (Analyst @ May 20 2007, 11:18 PM)
This whole forum is very quiet for a couple of months. It will probably be dead when both MERs die before Phoenix and MSL.
Analyst
Analyst
As one who joined when this forum was still called "mer.rlproject.com" I have to cry blasphemy!
Despite my love for the rovers, I have been having a lot of fun over on the Saturn side of things lately. This is truly a wonderful time for UMSF exploration; we have encounters and missions all over the the solar system. I must echo all the praise to Doug and extend it to my fellow UMSF'ers who contribute so much to the creative and civil tone of the boards. It's quite a beautiful garden we have here, and a good gardener needs to keep the weeds down. (I'm talking signal to noise ratio for the horticultural analogy challenged.)
MER may have been the Genesis at the Dawn of this community, but once commenced, this Odyssey will continue on to New Horizons and GRACE us with the Deep Impact of UMSF. *ducks*
QUOTE (Nix @ May 21 2007, 05:44 PM)
...I've barely managed to keep up a steady rate of working on a new website...
...and have been picking up my personal photography a lot too...
...It's been a hell of a year so far searching for a new home... (which in the meantime we've found)
...and right now I'm struggling to get my workplace the way I want...
...and have been picking up my personal photography a lot too...
...It's been a hell of a year so far searching for a new home... (which in the meantime we've found)
...and right now I'm struggling to get my workplace the way I want...
Guilty! (I don't know how Doug does it...)
Guilty! (Trying to make a daily record of my town...)
Guilty! (I didn't...)
Guilty! (I'm moving to a new office...)
But we're always around...
You make awesome photographs Ustrax!
Nico
Nico
Little did I expect my comment to end up in Community Chit-Chat, let alone to trigger this set of exchanges. I was simply trying to stimulate discussion about Opportunity's explorations. But, it has been interesting.
For the record, I am happy to see that politics is not a topic that is tolerated here. It would ruin the place if allowed to run rampant. Furthermore, as much as we all love the MERs, UMSF is is here to stay as The Place to learn about all kinds of space missions. The rovers could die tomorrow, but their legacy has already been written. This forum of exchange is unlikely to fade when those machines stop functioning.
Edited to correct grammar.
For the record, I am happy to see that politics is not a topic that is tolerated here. It would ruin the place if allowed to run rampant. Furthermore, as much as we all love the MERs, UMSF is is here to stay as The Place to learn about all kinds of space missions. The rovers could die tomorrow, but their legacy has already been written. This forum of exchange is unlikely to fade when those machines stop functioning.
Edited to correct grammar.
Quiet UMSF? No.
Doug, I understand you and really appreciate what you and other admins have been doing. I still remember how you carefully watched me and guided me with my first post in the forum.
We should keep this ship going on, to the stars!
Doug, I understand you and really appreciate what you and other admins have been doing. I still remember how you carefully watched me and guided me with my first post in the forum.
We should keep this ship going on, to the stars!
QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ May 21 2007, 09:24 PM)
UMSF is is here to stay as The Place to learn about all kinds of space missions. The rovers could die tomorrow, but their legacy has already been written. This forum of exchange is unlikely to fade when those machine's stop functioning.
I think that's quite true, CR, and applaud your vision. However, I can't help but grin ruefully for Doug when he realizes just exactly what sort of a burden he & the admins have assumed...
...hopefully gladly!
QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ May 22 2007, 12:24 AM)
I was simply trying to stimulate discussion about Opportunity's explorations.
I predict an uptick in discussion as Opportunity enters Duck Bay.
QUOTE (Nix @ May 21 2007, 06:27 PM)
You make awesome photographs Ustrax!
Nico
Nico
Thanks Nico!
Where can we see your work?...
QUOTE
I predict an uptick in discussion as Opportunity enters Duck Bay.
centsworth_II, I agree with you but I only see a fever comparable to previous MER achievements if Oppy ends the Victoria campaign and heads to unknown territory, the same with Spirit after Home Plate.
When their on the move, sailing towards unstepped ground it is like we are brave sailors onboard, this calm days is like they let us went to land to buy some souvenirs and start a fight in some bar in a portuary town...
Thank you, thank you , thank you Doug and everyone on/at UMSF.
UMSF has become my daily dose of sanity in a crazy world.
Along with other recources like MMB, Emily's (and others) Planetary Report updates, theDoug's audio interviews with SS and other QnAs, I can satisfy my craving for space exploration news and discussion.
Things have been a little slow lately, but just as we are gearing up for a busy period of new spacecraft activity in the DSN, I'm sure that UMSF'ers will launch into a re-invigorated period of discussion, debate, image processing, art, poetry and more.
Perhaps we need to think about another BBQ.
What about we meet at the 'Ball Park' with Spirit or the entry into 'Duck Bay' panorama that's sure to come with Opportunity.
In the meantime, keep posting, keep enjoying, keep exploring.
Astro0
UMSF has become my daily dose of sanity in a crazy world.
Along with other recources like MMB, Emily's (and others) Planetary Report updates, theDoug's audio interviews with SS and other QnAs, I can satisfy my craving for space exploration news and discussion.
Things have been a little slow lately, but just as we are gearing up for a busy period of new spacecraft activity in the DSN, I'm sure that UMSF'ers will launch into a re-invigorated period of discussion, debate, image processing, art, poetry and more.
Perhaps we need to think about another BBQ.
What about we meet at the 'Ball Park' with Spirit or the entry into 'Duck Bay' panorama that's sure to come with Opportunity.
In the meantime, keep posting, keep enjoying, keep exploring.
Astro0
QUOTE (ustrax @ May 21 2007, 09:47 AM)
I totally agree with the limits imposed to politics in this forum but I what I would give for a new abyss...
Your wish is Emily's command!!!!!
check out: http://planetary.org/blog/
David
That particular word in that particular blog entry title was carefully chosen
Emily
Emily
I was wondering just when this connection would be made. Ustrax was right all along.
Yes...You ask, MRO provides!
Ultreya is past! Long live to the Cernunnos Abyss, the Celtic God of Fertility, Life, Wealth and the Underworld!
Ultreya is past! Long live to the Cernunnos Abyss, the Celtic God of Fertility, Life, Wealth and the Underworld!
QUOTE (CosmicRocker @ May 21 2007, 04:06 AM)
This isn't nuts...this is super nuts. We are on a supposed bee-line drive back to Duck Bay, and they stop for a long time at a bunch of curious and unusually colored rocks. No one is posting wild speculations, no one is posting insider information...nothing...
Why have the MER topics been so quiet lately?
Why have the MER topics been so quiet lately?
The missions that are returning data now are mature and as a result the flow of truly new information has decreased. It's natural that the number of posts in this forum should also decrease...thankfully we are NOT taken over by lolcats or pointless debates about whether Bush=Hitler!
The initial two years of the MER missions were a very, very special time. New, really new discoverys daily if not hourly. Add the Huygens landing and the first couple of passes of Titan and we were spoiled for topics.
For the "youngsters" out there, please recognize that this is not the normal state of affairs. This forum will chug along with spurts of excitement (Dawn launch, Messenger first pictures from Mercury, Phoenix landing, Kepler launch and first light, perhaps a Deep Impact MOO) but those events will be short-lived. And the forward manifest looks even grimmer; the planning for the next flagship mission, for example, is woefully behind schedule. Juno doesn't launch until 2011. JWST won't launch until 2013 and it is already sucking the life out TPF and SIM. NH doesn't arrive until 2015. SOMETHING will need to be done about the current LANDSAT disaster and that something will be hugely expensive...to say nothing of how the shuttle program wrap up might affect science at NASA.
MSL, of course, will be a fabulous mission...but it also threatens to be the exclamation point on a remarkable golden age of interplanetary exploration.
The reality of interplanetary space exploration is that it is mind-numbingly expensive and glacially slow-paced. The orginal spurt of Discovery-class missions combined with robust Mars program hid this for awhile...but Discovery is slowing and running out of targets that can be done under the cost cap. Hopefully we'll at least be able to hit each Mars launch window, but even that will be difficult to count on, depending on the person (NOT party) that wins the next US presidential election.
I have no doubt that UMSF will survive and thrive...but it won't be the same as it was during the MER landings until MSL lands (with one robot, not two).
QUOTE (gpurcell @ May 24 2007, 09:02 PM)
it won't be the same as it was during the MER landings
Yup - when the rovers landed there wasn't any UMSF at all
Doug
QUOTE (djellison @ May 24 2007, 09:29 PM)
Yup - when the rovers landed there wasn't any UMSF at all
Doug
Doug
When did you start up the message board? That whole beginning of the mission is a bit of a haze for me between the rlproject site and The Other Mars Board?
Technically, Feb 8th 2004
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=1
The switch to UMSF was basically 12 months later.
Doug
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=1
The switch to UMSF was basically 12 months later.
Doug
As no-one seems to have spotted this yet I'll just gently point y'all in the direction of a piece that looks ahead to a time we're all dreading, which will obviously have an effect on UMSF.
QUOTE (Stu @ May 24 2007, 10:21 PM)
As no-one seems to have spotted this yet I'll just gently point y'all in the direction of a piece that looks ahead to a time we're all dreading, which will obviously have an effect on UMSF.
While there are some forms of catastrophic failure projectible for the MERs, ranging from the more likely (communications failure) to the less likely (mad rover driver sends Oppy full tilt over a cliff into Victoria), isn't it far more probable that the rovers will get "sick" for quite some time before they fully fail -- individual instrument failure, wheel jam, gradual diminution of available power?
QUOTE (David @ May 24 2007, 11:34 PM)
While there are some forms of catastrophic failure projectible for the MERs... isn't it far more probable that the rovers will get "sick" for quite some time before they fully fail -- individual instrument failure, wheel jam, gradual diminution of available power?
Yep. I don't talk about a 'catastrophic failure', just their eventual death. That could, of course, be after a long illness.
)I didn't; was looking at a piece about the Universe's appearance 3 trillion years from now. My apologies, did not mean to make light of the unfortunately inevitable day when our babies are done with their labors...and the article was beautiful, Stu.
Actually, we're really not looking at any really major gaps for the next several years...nothing compared to the 80s and early 90s, believe me. I am certain that the MERs and Cassini will keep on strokin' for at least the next 3-5 years; likewise for MEX, VEX, and of course MRO and Odyssey. Phoenix will be an exciting, although unfortunately brief mission. Meanwhile, Messenger and MSL will be in place (the latter's probably good for a decade at least!) while Dawn, Rosetta, and NH all reach their targets...
Don't forget Phobos-Grunt; either; for some reason, I've got a good feeling about this one. Hayabusa will hopefully come home as well.
Thinking things won't really get dry until around 2016 just with the current mission pool. In the meantime, I'm certain we'll have several more Discovery-class Mars missions in this interval and hopefully a Flagship to Europa or Titan (both, please!!!)
The good times aren't over...they've barely begun!
Let's see, a number of points, here...
No real problem here -- remember, the world is ending on December 21, 2012. So, of course it will be the exclamation point.
I'd think anyone who wanted to know when UMSF (or, more appropriately, its predecessor) began could simply look at the date on which Doug joined. Since he created it, I'd think he would have to have joined on the first day.
Also note that while Doug joined on 2/8/04, I joined on 2/9/04. A lot of us who showed up here at the beginning sort of knew each other from the sci.space Usenet newsgroups.
Actually, the biggest drought was between 1989 and 1997. The 1980s at least featured Voyager encounters with Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. Granted they were several years apart, but since they were the very first looks at the outer planets, they provided a huge number of bones to gnaw upon throughout the 80s. With the exception of the extremely small trickle from Galileo, there was really nothing between the Voyager 2 Neptune encounter and the arrival at Mars of MGS and MPF in 1997.
Those were very, very dry years. But, on the other hand, I didn't even have internet access until 1996 (as was the case for many), so there wasn't anything like what we've enjoyed with the MERs and beyond. The delivery system just didn't exist.
Interesting you chose that particular deity -- I long ago adopted that name as a portion of my spiritual name. I don't use it in public very often, of course, partially because most people are incapable of pronouncing it... *grin*...
-the other Doug
QUOTE (gpurcell @ May 24 2007, 03:02 PM)
MSL, of course, will be a fabulous mission...but it also threatens to be the exclamation point on a remarkable golden age of interplanetary exploration.
No real problem here -- remember, the world is ending on December 21, 2012. So, of course it will be the exclamation point.
QUOTE (gpurcell @ May 24 2007, 04:31 PM)
When did you start up the message board? That whole beginning of the mission is a bit of a haze for me between the rlproject site and The Other Mars Board?
QUOTE (djellison @ May 24 2007, 05:19 PM)
Technically, Feb 8th 2004
I'd think anyone who wanted to know when UMSF (or, more appropriately, its predecessor) began could simply look at the date on which Doug joined. Since he created it, I'd think he would have to have joined on the first day.
Also note that while Doug joined on 2/8/04, I joined on 2/9/04. A lot of us who showed up here at the beginning sort of knew each other from the sci.space Usenet newsgroups.
QUOTE (nprev @ May 24 2007, 06:35 PM)
Actually, we're really not looking at any really major gaps for the next several years...nothing compared to the 80s and early 90s, believe me.
Actually, the biggest drought was between 1989 and 1997. The 1980s at least featured Voyager encounters with Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. Granted they were several years apart, but since they were the very first looks at the outer planets, they provided a huge number of bones to gnaw upon throughout the 80s. With the exception of the extremely small trickle from Galileo, there was really nothing between the Voyager 2 Neptune encounter and the arrival at Mars of MGS and MPF in 1997.
Those were very, very dry years. But, on the other hand, I didn't even have internet access until 1996 (as was the case for many), so there wasn't anything like what we've enjoyed with the MERs and beyond. The delivery system just didn't exist.
QUOTE (ustrax @ May 24 2007, 03:54 AM)
Yes...You ask, MRO provides!
Ultreya is past! Long live to the Cernunnos Abyss, the Celtic God of Fertility, Life, Wealth and the Underworld!
Ultreya is past! Long live to the Cernunnos Abyss, the Celtic God of Fertility, Life, Wealth and the Underworld!
Interesting you chose that particular deity -- I long ago adopted that name as a portion of my spiritual name. I don't use it in public very often, of course, partially because most people are incapable of pronouncing it... *grin*...
-the other Doug
QUOTE (dvandorn @ May 25 2007, 08:00 AM)
With the exception of the extremely small trickle from Galileo, there was really nothing between the Voyager 2 Neptune encounter and the arrival at Mars of MGS and MPF in 1997.
I have to agree that they were dry years, but don't forget Magellan - I think it returned more data than all other preceding planetary missions combined, and Clementine.
Less prominent, probably due to the lack of imaging data, was Giotto's second cometary encounter in 1992. Pioneer Venus Orbiter kept going until that year too.
As an interested layperson, I don't have much to contribute except awe at the universe's grandeur... but I applaud those who keep UMSF going. It is without a doubt one of the most interesting places on the Internet. And also where I find almost all space-related news.
And also where I find almost all space-related news.
Regarding the 'drought years', I still have a couple coffee cups I bought when I went to JPL with the Hughes Space and Communications Co. team that built the Magellan radar. The theme of the mission, as emblazoned on the coffee cups, was, "Return To The Planets." It had been a while.
Keep in mind that is isn't just the US anymore. Here at ESA, there are a number of things going on. And we now have China, Japan and India planning missions. Russia may get back in the game, too. So there should be things to talk about for a while. And hopefully, enough jobs to get me through the next 15 or 20 years.
Keep in mind that is isn't just the US anymore. Here at ESA, there are a number of things going on. And we now have China, Japan and India planning missions. Russia may get back in the game, too. So there should be things to talk about for a while. And hopefully, enough jobs to get me through the next 15 or 20 years.
Hello to all. Finally got around to registering and putting up a post, and I figured this was a good spot. Long time lurker here. I remember seeing a post back on the Mark Carey mars blog about this place so I went to take a look. I was immediately hooked.
I have enjoyed looking at the wonderful pictures you all have created over the years, and I look forward to many more. And the discussions about Titan's chemistry! Wonderful! (I am a chemist by training)
I know I came here primarily because of the rovers, but I eventually started peeking into other boards...Cassini, Titan, asteriod missions...so many things! So easy to get overwhelmed, but totally exciting at the same time.
I just want to give a big thank you to all of you folks for helping me get through my work day with a little bit more knowledge of the universe around me.
Mike Q.
I have enjoyed looking at the wonderful pictures you all have created over the years, and I look forward to many more. And the discussions about Titan's chemistry! Wonderful! (I am a chemist by training)
I know I came here primarily because of the rovers, but I eventually started peeking into other boards...Cassini, Titan, asteriod missions...so many things! So easy to get overwhelmed, but totally exciting at the same time.
I just want to give a big thank you to all of you folks for helping me get through my work day with a little bit more knowledge of the universe around me.
Mike Q.
QUOTE (dvandorn @ May 25 2007, 08:00 AM)
Also note that while Doug joined on 2/8/04, I joined on 2/9/04. A lot of us who showed up here at the beginning sort of knew each other from the sci.space Usenet newsgroups.
I think it was an amalgam of posters from sci.space.* , IRC, and the planetary_sciences yahoogroup at the beginning.
One way to up the posting rate might be to bring back Bruce Moomaw...
It's not really that slow. MER has slowed down a bit - the mission as well as posting - but other things are still going strong. And active missions will always attract more posts. Wait until Phoenix lands - we'll have maps, pans, movies, back-seat driving...
And some folks are just plain busy! But just wait 'til you see what I'm working on now...
Phil
And some folks are just plain busy! But just wait 'til you see what I'm working on now...
Phil
QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ May 26 2007, 04:47 PM)
And some folks are just plain busy! But just wait 'til you see what I'm working on now...
Wait?!
How long? 
UMSF.com is fine as it is but this topic persuaded some to join the forum
David: "Wait?! How long? "
Not for very much longer... Are your socks firmly affixed? If not I fear it may knock them right off.
Phil
Not for very much longer... Are your socks firmly affixed? If not I fear it may knock them right off.
Phil
now you're just teasing!
Okay, Phil, now we're ALL on pins & needles...just a minor hint, please!
OK - Sasha Basilevsky said it was erotic.
Phil
Phil
MER + HiRISE + Phil = Requirement for large format printing?
Who said anything about MER and HiRISE?
Phil
Phil
Uh-huh. Well, can't tell now if I have too much or not enough information (might have to go wash my brain out, here; fortunately, it's one of my design features with a procedure in the manual & everything!), so will just wait for you to spill the beans when it's ready, Phil!
So - why did anyone think UMSF needed MER to survive? Here we have ten posts about absolutely nothing!
Phil
Phil
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