When we we're around Sol 90 and since, Steve and All repeat time after time, that they manage the rovers as if it was the last Sol of their life. What I read now, from Steve, from Des Marais and others is that they plan a full Exploration of VC for the months to come. We need for sure to have a plan of Exploration but, what do you think they/we can do after the upper conjunction is over and once we've got and studied the first big pancam of Victoria? I'm talking about TOTAL break-up, so you want to get as much science as possible. You've got to plan (nearly) sol after sol, setting up priorities.
It's may be too early to start this as it'll depend on what the big pancam will tell us but, in another hand, will you plan a big loop if the grand prize is on the other side with a risk of break-up and NO science or what?
This topic can be updated as we go.

I'd start the circumnavigation clockwise, and plan to get panoramas from on top of the beacon, as well as the capes on either side of the beacon, because I suspect that the cliffs under the beacon will be among the most interesting in Victoria.

Next stop would be the dark dust on the northeast of Victoria, for geological study as wel as a chance to take panoramas from the lowest points along Victoria's rim, looking back at beacon from the other side as well.

Then onward to the eastern bays, which appear to be among the gentlest inclines into Victoria. At this point, I'd start examining bays for possible entry points into Victoria, since we'd have covered at least half the circumferance collecting panoramas and would already have visited the most curious area of the annulus.

You gottit.

--Bill

I'd say that, since we seem to have uniform strata all round, stop and take a couple of good panoramas from one or both of the capes adjacent to Duck Bay, then drive down the ramp of Duck Bay, sampling as we go until we're as deep as possible, take a nice pan from the bottom, then reverse up and out of Vicky and head for places far away, possibly stopping on the far side of Vicky for another pan. My perspective may change once we've taken the first good pancam of the interior, however.

I'm 100% with you
If Oppy break up then, we'll have the data we went to look for.
Kinda Apollo-first-missions like. Hope we'll get up to the "J" missions (you know, when they started using rovers )

Of course this can't be true of every sol. What would be the sense be of uploading new software or just traveling on the last sol? There is obviously a more optimistic planning philosophy in play no matter how many times the "last sol" comment is made.

The point is well taken though, Opportunity's days are numbered. Whether that number is ten or a thousand, noone knows. So I agree with climber and algorimancer, find a good spot and start checking out those layers. At Endurance it was obvious that the good layering was on the opposite side from the point of arrival so it made sense to circumnavigate until a good spot for accessing those layers was found. The same may be found for Victoria. But if a good, accessible stack of layers is found nearby, I say skip the circumnavigation and head for it. I think the geologic history to be discovered in traveling down those layers outweighs the knowlege to be found in circumnavigating Victoria. The "last sol" philosophy says we must treat this decision as if it is a choice of one or the other: circumnavigate or enter.

Of course there is an optimistic planning. I guess they just need to realize the disaster-scenario in the back of their heads all the time to cope with it once it's time.

We'll all need some 'help' by the time the rovers stop working BTW

IIRC, Steve spoke about having something like a 180 sol life-expectancy for the rovers at the beginning of the mission.

I don't like the idea of going in too fast -a full circumnavigation will allow for one hell of a good model to begin exploring a place that will take a lot of work understanding.. and I personally have good confidence Oppy will go for another year or so, therefore a good preparation to the work inside Victoria is fine by me.

Nico

I seriously think that the plan is going to be to get up on top of *both* of the capes to get a good stereo view of about 80% of the crater's walls, and then (if it's navigable) take Duck Bay down to see what the outcrops look like from here.

After getting as much "first look" data as we can from the layers exposed on this portion of the rim, we can go to the now-well-studied pans from the capes and plot out where else on the rim to go next.

This strategy maximizes the chances of getting a good look at the extent of exposed strata at our current location, and gives the boys in the back rooms a chance to develop the smartest possible plan for gettkng the most out of the rest of the crater...

-the other Doug

I disagree with a full circumnavigation, get into Victoria as soon as possible and examine the cliffs, she may not of course need to go all the way down to get at the base of a cliff. After that you can do whatever you jolly well please.

A lot will depend on those first pans from Cabo Verde and Cabo Frio. Victoria has such an unusual rim, with the deep "scallops" of bays between cliffs.

It might turn out that we can go a little ways into a bay and get good views of the cliffs on either side. It might turn out that this approach lets us get good stratiography and good TES readings without committing Oppy to a lifetime stuck in a crater.

Or not.

There's still interesting science to do from the rim, specifically in the dark dust in the northeast annulus. It's all a series of trade-offs, and we can defer the decision for another month or so.

I think there's a problem with diving in straight down Duck Bay: power. A 15-20 degree tilt away from the Sun may reduce the daily power intake by a significant amount. Others have asked about this and no-one's answered -- having tried to scratch out an approximate answer with schoolboy trig and failed utterly I'm not surprised - but in a very hand-waving, w-a-g sense, I guesstimate tilting away from the sun by 20 degrees will reduce power input by 30%. Which would be bad.

But I'm probably completely wrong

That us why I think we won't do any crater descents now, and then likely in the Spring on the SE, S or SW rims. That would give an optimum orientation of the solar panels for a power-intensive climb.

--Bill

Yes, Imi and Bill, power supply must be considered. Having taken a good thorough pan from the near side - Cape Verde or the Beacon high point I would favor - we'll have a good idea of the far side exposures. To get a similar appreciation of the near side bluffs will require pans from the opposite (far) side, so a roughly half circumnavigation is called for.

Other things (like access ease/risk) being equal, it is the deepest exposed strata that will be the oldest, and offer the most potential for expanding our history of the Meridiani Plain. Of course we might see in the pans particularly intriguing layers or isolated objects worth visiting, but otherwise "deeper is better". Our first major foray down into VC should have these deep exposures as their principal goal. After that we should head for any other exposed units not yet studied to death in Endurance or Eagle.

We shouldn't consider leaving this old girl until we have learned her deepest secrets! As a hedge against Oppy's early demise, we should grab a 'contingency sample' from the lowest exposures safely reachable in Duck Bay.

Since power contraints will prevent any near term entries, after the arrival pan I'd propose that the Beacon is the next logical goal. Being the highest outcop in the area it possibly contains the highest part of the geological section we are likely to find. It would be interesting to see if it contains any remnants of the younger sediments that are postulated to have covered the crater before it was exhumed. But even if not, we'd want to study the entire section that is available here. Then, when power levels are rising comfortably, Opportunity can continue around the east side as they evaluate the best place to enter and study the lower exposures.

I think you may have that backwards, Bill. We're approaching southern spring, which means we'd want to enter on the northern rim to maximize solar insolation into summer.

I raised these points in an earlier thread. Right now it's still southern winter, so if they could get to the south rim fast they could maximize power on a decent into a bay there. A half martian year or so from now would be a good time to enter the north rim.

That raises a possibility: after some imaging around Duck Bay, do a quick skirt counterclockwise towards a navigable entry point on the south side. Enter before the spring equinox, then (if it's drivable) work back clockwise inside the rim, studying the cliffs, and arriving at the south facing slopes of the north rim in time to bask during summer.

However, we don't know how critical insolation is. It would take someone of the eminent stature of a Helvick to say how well Oppy could function on a slope of 20 degrees or whatever pointing in whatever direction. Oppy is actually doing very well as I understand it and things are only going to improve as summer approaches.

>I think you may have that backwards, Bill. We're approaching southern spring, which means...

Well, DOH!, you are correct. I fear that I was still in a north-facing slope mantra mode for Spirit.

--Bill

Another related point here regards studying the cliffs. I had pictured this being most effective from the floor of a bay along the base of an adjacent cliff: as you drive down, you presumably see deeper into the layers. But we almost certainly don't want to be parked for days doing integrations at the base of a steep cliff to our east or west anytime, or s/n in summer/winter. That's because apart from the rover's tilt, the cliff would put us in the shade for a good fraction of a day! (As anyone who's lived at the base of a steep mountain knows well!)

This actually puts fairly tight constraints on where/when we'd want to work.

I don't think anymore that we can realy spend time wandering around and taking pictures like tourists.
I agree that, if you don't have enough energy to go down, let's go up and study the Beacon first.
Then if they decided that Duck Bay is rovable at least down to a few meters what about charging batteries at maximum, rove down, take pictures & mesurements untill you nearly deplete your energy, recharge batteries and rush out? This could take a week and we could get pretty good science out of this. That give time to study results and plan for others "dives" untill spring will set up and give the energy you realy need.
Let's dive into Victoria.
Ustrax, any cartoon ?

This certainly could be a problem, on the other hand: The rover are near the equator, so the sun go nearly trough zenit so the rover will get good sunlight for quite a while each day as long as it isnt placed directly under one overhang.
In addition. Any such position would not be one option since it would also cut off communications to some degree.
So what remains are to get lucky and not only find a nice path down into the crater but also find a rockface that are in the right position so the shadow problem might be kept at a managable level.

It could easily cause a loss of 30% and possibly more - as you descend the ramps you also could also be changing the local sunrise\sunset by a non trivial amount, possibly by as much as 2 or three hours at each end of the day.

However that would happen now only on entry ramps on the NNE/N/NNW quadrant. At a guess I'd say that on the SE or SW zones the overall slope tilt effect would be beneficial and the Sunrise\sunset losses would limited enough not to be serious. There is also an additional effect from albedo within a crater where the surface reflected light could add measurably to overall generated power. Just as was done with Spirit back before she lurched over to Low Ridge it is likely that someone will make a power generation map for the likely entry points just to make sure that power loss is not a problem.

Regarding day by Day planning, there's something VERY important they used to do and I didn't hear about for a loooong time : they used to play music/song every new sol. Either they canceled it or they realized the rovers were going to last forever and songs will run out anyway.
Anybody's got news on that?

Let me chip in a couple of cents as to why Diane's is a better plan than diving straight in. One of the greatest products of this mission (think about sitting in an IMAX theatre with kids/grandkids in ten years) will be a full resolution model of Victoria which you can pan and zoom across from any vantage point. This will require pancam images from several vantage points (at a minimum three) around the edge of the crater. Beyond just making IMAX magic, they will want to create a geological model of the meridiani plain. Differences in elevation of the various units seen in cross section in the crater walls will be relevant and may be key to that type of detailed study. Having a stable platform from which to accumulate this data is important and that platform is up on the apron. Risk of loss of the rover is lower up there too.

There is all kinds of cool stuff to explore up on the apron (outcrops, rises, bays, gullies (maybe), differentiated dust streaks and a real nice looking crater).

I think (and I hope I am wrong) that a descent will be quite treacherous (though doable). The sides will be slippery and steeper close to the top than Endurance. Ascent is quite another story and the team will again have to agree (as they did at Endurance) that it is worth the risk of not getting out before they decide to go for it. In the end it's a no-brainer. Of course they'll send her all the way in! But not until they are sure they have a full-spectrum picture of the crater and all the neat stuff on the horizon in the bank, IMHO.

I agree Markl and Diane, it was my first thought before getting there. If we'd sure to have a long living rover it"ll be the right think to do, no doubt about this. My intention, when I openned this thread was to imagine what's the VERY BEST to do next and not assessing a long time planning. Imagine the rover died half way around the Victoria's loop. We certainly have good science by then but would the say, 2 months, devoted to do that, been the best use of Oppy ?
Second idea was to update this "what you do now" every time a new goal has been accomplished. Right now we've got on the list :
1- get to Duck Bay
2- go to Cape Verde or Capo Frio and take a big pancam
My feeling is :
3- go inside as far as you're sure you can go back and do science along the way and THEN continue the loop

I think "dipping a toe in" in this way is a great idea so long as she comes out again!