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ljk4-1
Jim Bell is coming out with a new book this November titled Postcards from Mars.

The details are here:

http://www.postcardsfrommarsbook.com

The book's subtitle, "The First Photographer on the Red Planet", has me wondering
how that will make all the previous Mars probes feel. Except maybe Mars 3 - there's
just nothing you can do with that image.
mhoward
QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jun 20 2006, 03:46 PM) *
The book's subtitle, "The First Photographer on the Red Planet", has me wondering
how that will make all the previous Mars probes feel. Except maybe Mars 3 - there's
just nothing you can do with that image.


Perhaps there is a difference between someone taking some pictures and a "photographer" - I think the rovers have arguably for the first time raised the practice to an artform.

Looking forward to the book, definitely...
djellison
Well - Viking 1 and 2 and Pathfinder took pictures...and Sojourner moved and took pictures - but I don't think the title 'photographer' is appropriate for them or their teams. The imagery taken was to document things, to study engineering issues.

I think Jim nails it quite well in the extract..
http://www.postcardsfrommarsbook.com/excerpt.html

Those of us taking photographs with the Mars rovers, on the other hand, have had the luxury of much more time devoted to picture taking, much more bandwidth for sending pictures back to Earth, and better resolution of our cameras compared with that of any previous Mars missions. These advantages have allowed us to not just acquire images, but to take photographs.

I think that's a fair judgement. I think Phoenix may just tip into the 'Photographs' catagory depending on how creative the SSI team get with their kit . Without doubt, MSL and Exomars will be taking photographs.

Look at a Hazcam image of IDD work. That's an image. An amazing image, and inspiring image, a great image...but an image.

Look at the sunset image from near Larrys Lookout. THAT...is a photograph

Doug
elakdawalla
I've been chatting with Jim Bell about various stuff and I pointed him to this link. He had the following to say (in a nutshell, Doug's right):

QUOTE
The issue about the subtitle is a valid one, and is one that I went round and round with the publisher about. My original subtitle was "The First Photographers on the Red Planet", because my point was exactly what Doug deduced from the excerpt: we--the team, the rovers, all of us--have the luxury of routinely thinking about photographic, artistic issues in the imaging for the first time in the history of Mars exploration. My editor, the publisher, and the marketing department all wanted me to take out the "s" on "Photographers", to make it seem like a more personal journey. I said, "that's going to piss off my colleagues who have been involved in previous Mars missions." They said "so what." I held my ground and we were at a standoff for some time. But they are more clever than I am. They then decided that they didn't like my main title either, and wanted something different because "Postcards" sounded too trifling to them (silly little pieces of heavy paper...). Ultimately, I had to trade losing the "s" in the subtitle for keeping "Postcards." I am not too happy about it, and expect to take significant flack from some of my colleagues, none of whom I was trying to disrespect. Hopefully if they actually read the words in the book, they will arrive at the same (correct) interpretation of what I meant that Doug did.
mcaplinger
QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 20 2006, 09:16 AM) *
Well - Viking 1 and 2 and Pathfinder took pictures...and Sojourner moved and took pictures - but I don't think the title 'photographer' is appropriate for them or their teams.

Not to get bogged down in the semantics, but I disagree. See, for example, Tim Mutch's remark in http://history.nasa.gov/SP-425/ch19.htm about the first Viking panorama:

QUOTE
Figure 31 was the first of the three panoramas to be obtained. The rising Sun backlights the entire scene, sharply delineating drifts of sediment and shadowing a prominent boulder about 2 m across and 9 m from the spacecraft. This is probably the most publicized picture taken during the entire Viking mission. Within a day after it was released it appeared on the front page of virtually every major paper in the United States, and many other papers around the world... The ultimate compliment came from a friend of mine who could look back on a distinguished career as a photographer for Life during the heyday of that magazine. After the picture was first described at a special news conference, he came up and remarked, "That's a good picture." "Of course," I responded, thinking primarily of its technical qualities. "No," he returned. "You don't understand. It's really a good picture."


And yes, if some people are ticked by Jim's glory-hounding, intentional or not, I can't blame them. I already gave him a fair bit of crap for Squyres calling him the "Ansel Adams of the space age".
djellison
Oh - it's always going to be a judgement call based on personal taste...obviously I'm a big MER fan - I wasn't alive to experience Viking first hand, and I'm not trying to take anything away from their huge achievments - and I was just really getting online for Pathfinder, and loved that a huge ammount.

But I think Pancam is something a bit different - mainly because of the size of the pipe is had to send stuff back - they've been able to go "that'll look nice" and compose things from time to time...that first mosaic from Husband hill for example - http://pancam.astro.cornell.edu/pancam_ins...valley_new.html - or some of the sunset mosaics etc...they've been sequenced with an knowledge that they were making something stunning. Mobility helps as well.

MOC get's the same treatment smile.gif

Take this - http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2006/05/31/ - stunning. Infact so is just about every single MOC image ever taken to be honest. BUT....I'd call that an image...

THESE, however...
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/06/23/
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/10_12_...98_olympus_rel/

THEY..are photographs wink.gif

Now - to be honest, it's a fairly pointless differentiation, and it's objective, and differently so from person to person...but hey....a pretty picture's a pretty picture cool.gif

Doug
mhoward
I stand corrected.
mcaplinger
QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 20 2006, 04:22 PM) *

Oh, OK. So a working definition of a "photograph" from an orbiter is "an oblique image of no scientific value." smile.gif
djellison
LOL - MM's got you well trained smile.gif

Doug
monitorlizard
QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Jun 20 2006, 06:37 PM) *
Oh, OK. So a working definition of a "photograph" from an orbiter is "an oblique image of no scientific value." smile.gif


According to one of my perfectionist geology professors, the word "photograph" explicitly requires the use of film and developing fluids. The word "image" is the most appropriate for a digitally transmitted view of an object, "picture" is an acceptable but less desirable term.

One other thought, when I heard the subtitle about first photographer on Mars, I interpretted it to refer to the rovers' ability to move around to get the best or most aesthetic view of various objects, as a photographer on Earth would do.
climber
We're getting more and more from spacecrafts and both Cassini and Mer offer us more and more beautifull "view" of the Solar System. Let think of the first "view" of the back side of the moon by Luna 3. What was it? An image ? A picture ? An historic document ? An inspiration ? What will be the first view of Pluto and its system by NH ?
David
QUOTE (monitorlizard @ Jun 21 2006, 05:09 PM) *
According to one of my perfectionist geology professors, the word "photograph" explicitly requires the use of film and developing fluids. The word "image" is the most appropriate for a digitally transmitted view of an object, "picture" is an acceptable but less desirable term.


But we speak of "digital photography", don't we? Just because historically photography has been associated with certain chemical processes, doesn't mean the term can't be reapplied to other processes that have similar results -- just as "picture" was applied to photographs although it could have been limited to paintings. When developing fluids have gone the way of the dodo, I suspect we'll still be taking "photographs". Going by the etymology, one might suppose that "photography" applied to any process that produced a graphic image via the interception of visible light.
mcaplinger
QUOTE (monitorlizard @ Jun 21 2006, 10:09 AM) *
One other thought, when I heard the subtitle about first photographer on Mars, I interpretted it to refer to the rovers' ability to move around to get the best or most aesthetic view of various objects, as a photographer on Earth would do.

It's an interesting question as to whether the rovers have ever been driven to a specific location solely to get the most aesthetic view of something. I would tend to doubt it, though it's probably impossible to sort out intentions after the fact.

And as long as I'm ragging on "the Ansel Adams of the space age", I'd be curious to know how many of the most aesthetic MER images ended up that way because of some intentional choice of planning options, and how many of them are aesthetic simply because the scene was aesthetic and the images were technically well-commanded.
odave
QUOTE (David @ Jun 21 2006, 01:35 PM) *
But we speak of "digital photography", don't we?


I think the terminology depends on the field. ISTM that in the amateur astronomy camp, you tend have people referring to pictures taken with CCDs as "images", and the act of taking them as "imaging". If you use an old fashioned film camera, you are taking "astrophotos" and doing "astrophotography". But of course, the boundaries are as blurred as the images I get using my scope's balky RA drive wink.gif
Stephen
QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Jun 20 2006, 08:52 PM) *
I've been chatting with Jim Bell about various stuff and I pointed him to this link. He had the following to say (in a nutshell, Doug's right):

"The issue about the subtitle is a valid one, and is one that I went round and round with the publisher about. My original subtitle was "The First Photographers on the Red Planet", because my point was exactly what Doug deduced from the excerpt: we--the team, the rovers, all of us--have the luxury of routinely thinking about photographic, artistic issues in the imaging for the first time in the history of Mars exploration. My editor, the publisher, and the marketing department all wanted me to take out the "s" on "Photographers", to make it seem like a more personal journey. I said, "that's going to piss off my colleagues who have been involved in previous Mars missions." They said "so what." I held my ground and we were at a standoff for some time. But they are more clever than I am. They then decided that they didn't like my main title either, and wanted something different because "Postcards" sounded too trifling to them (silly little pieces of heavy paper...). Ultimately, I had to trade losing the "s" in the subtitle for keeping "Postcards." I am not too happy about it, and expect to take significant flack from some of my colleagues, none of whom I was trying to disrespect. Hopefully if they actually read the words in the book, they will arrive at the same (correct) interpretation of what I meant that Doug did.

I haven't published anything so I do not know many publishers, but given (or so I would have thought) that books are a book publisher's bread and butter for one of them to take a "so what" attitude to how one of their own publications might be perceived by a potentially influential section of the market for it strikes me as bizarre.

In that same connection I note that instead of a "Read the Reviews" link the book's website has a "Read the Acclaim" one--even though no actual "acclaim" has yet been received (Dava Sobel's opinion notwithstanding; and she was potentially a poor choice to sing the book's praises anyway given that her own book on solar system matters ("The Planets")--which I notice the website is canny enough not to mention--was received with considerably less than universal acclaim).

It's enough to make you wonder whether Jim Bell has chosen the wrong people to publish his tome.

I only hope Jim does not find himself having to spend much of the second half of November defending a subtitle somebody else imposed on him instead of basking in the acclaim for his book.

======
Stephen
Stu
(Dava Sobel's opinion notwithstanding; and she was potentially a poor choice to sing the book's praises anyway given that her own book on solar system matters ("The Planets")--which I notice the website is canny enough not to mention--was received with considerably less than universal acclaim).

Which has baffled me because there is some absolutely beautiful writing in that book!!!! Okay, a couple of the chapters are a bit "quirky", but there are passages in there that had me shaking my head in awe at her writing. It's one of my favourites now, not least because it introduced me to the beautiful astronomical poetry of Diane Ackerman.

Looking forward to Jim's book. I really hope he doesn't get too much flak for the publisher's stubbornness. My publishers, I'm happy to say, are very sensible when it comes to things like that. Part of me can see their point, and most people will realise the book isn't about him - after all, he wasn't on Mars himself! - but but I fear it will cause him some problems. sad.gif
djellison
QUOTE (Stephen @ Jun 22 2006, 03:03 AM) *
I only hope Jim does not find himself having to spend much of the second half of November defending a subtitle somebody else imposed on him instead of basking in the acclaim for his book.


The pictures will do all the defense the book could need. Truth be told, the title ( which I quite like ) and the sub title ( which I'm not too sure about ) don't actually matter one iota....one shouldn't gauge the quality of the content of the publication by inspecting it's jacket.....I'm sure there's a catchphrase about that.... laugh.gif

Doug
Stu
QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 22 2006, 08:19 AM) *
one shouldn't gauge the quality of the content of the publication by inspecting it's jacket.....


You're absolutely right, they shouldn't, but they do. We all do, if we're honest.

One of the most fundamental laws of the universe is People Are Stupid. Especially when they think they did something great before someone else who's getting all the praise for it.

Looking forward to the book!
mcaplinger
QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 22 2006, 12:19 AM) *
The pictures will do all the defense the book could need.

I haven't seen the book or the text therein, so I may be way off base, but my concern with it is that Jim may appear to be taking too much credit for what in reality was the team effort of hundreds of people. It's one thing for Squyres to write a personal account of the mission from his perspective (and his narrative certainly gives credit where credit is due); I'm just hoping that Jim didn't go over the line with this book. The subtitle frankly doesn't bode well.
djellison
QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Jun 22 2006, 05:16 PM) *
I'm just hoping that Jim didn't go over the line with this book.


Having chatted to him a fair bit, not once has he failed to credit his team and those that have helped them...publishers are fickle sods, so like I said, don't judge the book by it's cover...they just wanted something snappy, if inappropriate, for the cover.

Doug
ElkGroveDan
QUOTE (monitorlizard @ Jun 21 2006, 09:09 AM) *
According to one of my perfectionist geology professors, the word "photograph" explicitly requires the use of film and developing fluids. The word "image" is the most appropriate for a digitally transmitted view of an object, "picture" is an acceptable but less desirable term.
Then in his world there are very few photographers left. All the pros now use high-end digital SLRS for darn near everything. News photographers shoot and transmit to their editors on the spot. Portrait and commercial photographers use digital to recombine the best featureas of series of shots for a final "perfect" image. Film is going, going, going, gone.
mars loon
For those interested to meet Jim, I will be hosting him for a lecture in Princeton, NJ on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 at 8 PM. As the date approaches I will post further details.

He will also be autographing his book and I previously posted some info on this at this thread:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=2574

ken
brianc
Not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but Jim Bell's web pages are quite interesting - there are quite a few good .pdf's of some of Jim's presentations.

http://marswatch.astro.cornell.edu/mer.html
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