dot.dk
Nov 26 2005, 09:39 AM
All the latest MI images from Opportunity shows this part of the rover:
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...KCP2957M1M1.JPGThe only thing I can think of is that it is an image taken with the IDD stowed.
Actually the front hazcam pictures confirms this. What can the reason for this be?
A problem with the IDD so it didn't unstow, but somehow the MI carried out its tasks?
Bill Harris
Nov 26 2005, 12:27 PM
Does not look good, dot.dk. Those "odd" MI images were taken first over a period of an hour and then again 4 hours later. It does look like the IDD won't unstow and the dust cover is still in place.
Let me dig and find the planned task sequence for that Sol.
--Bill
Bill Harris
Nov 26 2005, 12:46 PM
From
http://marswatch.astro.cornell.edu/merweb/merweb.pl , here is part of the tracking report:
1. What new EDRs from ANY sol were received on sol 654?
Number of EDRs received by sol, sequence number, and image type:
Sol Seq.Ver ETH ESF EDN EFF ERP Tot Description
--- -------- --- --- --- --- --- ---- -----------
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2936.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_veryhigh
654 p2956.02 1 0 0 1 0 2 mi_open_minloss2_LUT3_high_DNTH2000
<snip>
I don't know what the interpretation of this is, so I'll leave it to others.
--Bill
Decepticon
Nov 26 2005, 12:49 PM
Are there anymore pics like this?
Sunspot
Nov 26 2005, 01:34 PM
If the sequence to deploy and carefully postion the IDD arm hadn't worked, would the sequence designed to take the images have started? I would have thought it wouldn't - just a guess though.
6. What unexpected sequences ran? (that is, sequences we did not enter in the SSF
list file /home/mersci/pan/B/ops/Sol_all_seq_list.txt)
No unexpected sequences run.
Thats the only problem with the pancam tracking site - lots of information, we just dont know how to interpret much of it lol.
Also......I don't think i've seen so many MI's taken in a single sol as this one.
Jeff7
Nov 26 2005, 05:17 PM
Maybe they're checking for changes in dust deposition over a period of time?
Even that seems an odd way to do it though, and not very effective. Wonder if someone just forgot a command when programming the sequence.
Sunspot
Nov 26 2005, 05:26 PM
We've been at this site for about 3 days, and the IDD hasn't been deployed yet which seems a little unusual to me, its normally deployed almost immediately. Maybe those images were intended to see if there was any reason why it waas stuck
OWW
Nov 26 2005, 06:39 PM
QUOTE (Sunspot @ Nov 26 2005, 05:26 PM)
We've been at this site for about 3 days, and the IDD hasn't been deployed yet which seems a little unusual to me, its normally deployed almost immediately. Maybe those images were intended to see if there was any reason why it waas stuck
I don't think so. The reason they took those front hazcam pics is that the IDD is supposed to do its stuff. And who needs 33 MI-pictures of the same area for an inspection?
I think the computer sees some restriction for the arm and therefore doesn't move it. Either that, or the arm is stuck for some reason.
Let's wait and see what happens after the weekend.
Cugel
Nov 27 2005, 02:36 PM
Even more MI pictures came down.... all the same.
On the forward hazcam pictures of yesterday you can see some small position changes in the arm. But the pictures of today show no movement (let alone deployment) of the arm at all. I think we can 'officially' declare an emergency situation here.
Start speculating about the value of this mission without the IDD?
We still have pancam and MiniTes of course.
Bill Harris
Nov 27 2005, 02:53 PM
The mission is valuable. Oppy still has mobility and the Haz-, Nav- and Pancams. We've simply misplaced our handlens and scratch-plate. There may be a solution to this problem, but for the time being, the arm be stuck...
--Bill
akuo
Nov 27 2005, 04:24 PM
A bit early to declare emegency without any info from JPL. It might be a simple sequencing error by the mission planners, after which they let Oppy be as she is for the weekend because of holidays and the weekend. Even if there was a problem, they probably wouldn't start debugging it until monday.
RNeuhaus
Nov 27 2005, 05:20 PM
The Oppy might have experienced any problems with the IDD and have performed a safety reset: SAFE MODE. After this reset, it will clear any software bug that might have stuck the arms and facilite the engineering rover to analyze the origins of the problem.
I don't think that the arms might have been broken because of any strike on the surface because the IDD is is proctected by the safety margin algorithm software. I think it so. It is logical to incorporate that software to MER in order to protect of the valuable instrument against any accident strikes on the surface.
Hope that won't ham to the instruments of the arm then.
Rodolfo
Edward Schmitz
Nov 27 2005, 07:41 PM
It is more likely a sequence problem than a hardware problem. If the arm didn't do what it was instructed to do, the sequence would have been aborted. Let's wait and see what JPL has to say before we get too worried.
tty
Nov 27 2005, 08:01 PM
On the other hand there have been a couple of glitches with Opportunity's IDD before, which
might be due to hardware problems (cable fraying) (see Steve Squyres transcript). I suppose this would make JPL extra cautious before trying anything if there are problems. Having the IDD stick in the folded position would be bad, but not catastrophic. Having it stick in the deployed position would be much worse.
tty
CosmicRocker
Nov 28 2005, 03:50 AM
I'm not sure what this means, or if it even means anything. I won't suggest this is anything significant, because I can't interpret a lot of the stuff in the pancam tracking reports. But I went back to the last sol when MIs were taken, Sol 649. There was an "unexpected sequence," but it seems to be associated with a front hazcam image. However, that image was from command sequence P1110, which is always for front hazcam shots of the IDD in action.
Can anyone else interpret the tracking report better than I can? Any ideas?
BruceMoomaw
Nov 28 2005, 04:27 AM
They have had a large number of rather mysterious computer resets recently on MER-B, according to Doug McCuistion. (Some of them seem to be associated with the Mini-TES, for which reason it is now infrequently used.)
Tesheiner
Nov 28 2005, 10:14 AM
According to the planned sequences, sol 655 would be dedicated to the Mossbauer Spectrometer, but once again the IDD is missing in the hazcam pics.
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all...CP1131L0M1.HTML---
655 p1131.04 2 0 2 0 0 4 f_haz_idd_mb_doc_512x512x1bpp_vhigh
---
Sunspot
Nov 28 2005, 10:29 AM
We just have to accept that this far into the mission things are likely to breakdown
But loosing 4 science instruments at once is a major blow.
Tesheiner
Nov 28 2005, 11:05 AM
I'm of the opinion that this "hiccup" is related to a sequencing error.
But we (me at least) don't have enough information to be sure.
I think the best will be just to wait for some news update from JPL and/or Cornell.
Toma B
Nov 28 2005, 11:57 AM
Of course there is always a good side in this situation...
I know this might anger some of you guys...but if IDD arm is permanently stuck , then Opportunity will just have to drive a lot more...and maybe drive all the way to that awesome Victoria crater which is great isn't it?
Tesheiner
Nov 28 2005, 01:27 PM
Someone at the "other" forum remarked that something similar happened to Spirit on sol 150.
Here is the MER status report about the issue:
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/sta...All.html#sol148QUOTE
Spirit used its alpha particle X-ray spectrometer and Mössbauer spectrometer to observe a rock called "Joshua" on sol 150. Unfortunately, the rest of the sol's planned work with the instrument deployment device did not take place because of a command anomaly, which made Spirit think that a collision between the rock abrasion tool and the forearm might occur. Therefore, the tool change and all subsequent arm motions were prevented for the rest of the sol.
Spirit was back to business on sol 151, and finished observing Joshua and the science magnets with the tools on the instrument deployment device. After that, the rover was off, and successfully completed a 73-meter (240 feet) drive toward the Columbia Hills.
Cugel
Nov 28 2005, 01:42 PM
QUOTE (Tesheiner @ Nov 28 2005, 01:27 PM)
Someone at the "other" forum remarked that something similar happened to Spirit on sol 150.
Here is the MER status report about the issue:
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/sta...All.html#sol148Hope you're right, but how similar is similar?
Did Spirit take 56 identical MI images in a stowed position?
Bill Harris
Nov 28 2005, 01:45 PM
Thanks, Tesheiner, I seemed to recall an earlier anomaly but couldn't remember the details.
To confirm what we have assumed what we see, I found an MI image from Sol 002 taken with the IDD stowed; it shows the same objects in the field of view that we see now. The dust cover was open, so the image is clearer (I suspect that the dust cover now has a coating of dust). The right front wheel can be seen in the background as this image was taken before the wheels were unfolded into the working position.
Interesting to browse those first images...
--Bill
Tesheiner
Nov 28 2005, 02:45 PM
OT: Look how clean is that wheel!
Bill Harris
Nov 28 2005, 03:16 PM
OT^2 : But considering that the wheel has turned over 5000 times during 4Km of travel, it is quite unworn today!
--Bill
Edward Schmitz
Nov 29 2005, 01:12 AM
The difference in the previous anomoly is that the sequence aborted. In this case we have 50+ images of the rover. If the arm were simply stuck, it shouldn't have done anything else.
Something else is happening. I'm voting for poorly constructed sequence.
ed
edstrick
Nov 29 2005, 08:17 AM
Note that this problem has occurred during the 4 day Thanksgiving Holiday Weekend in the US. I assume they parked both rovers at nice outcrops and planned LONG Mossbauer integrations and the like... basically a 4 or 5 day pre-programmed sequence so people could have most of the weekend off.
Toma B
Nov 29 2005, 08:54 AM
QUOTE (edstrick @ Nov 29 2005, 11:17 AM)
Note that this problem has occurred during the 4 day Thanksgiving Holiday Weekend in the US. I assume they parked both rovers at nice outcrops and planned LONG Mossbauer integrations and the like... basically a 4 or 5 day pre-programmed sequence so people could have most of the weekend off.
AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!
So is that waisting precious time or what...nobody looked at raw images , nobody to react because they are on holiday?
I'm not trying to start another "They deserve a rest once in a while" discusion , just thinking how many of you guys would sacrifice your holidays so that you can be in control of vehicle on Mars...I would...
Yes I know that it's not "just sit back and drive" but these guys are so privileged few who can DRIVE ROVERS ON ANOTHER PLANET...I would sell my soul to &$*#@ and work 365 days a year , without salary or food to have their job...are they looking for rover drivers?
Enrique Bunbury
Nov 29 2005, 09:30 AM
QUOTE (edstrick @ Nov 29 2005, 08:17 AM)
Note that this problem has occurred during the 4 day Thanksgiving Holiday Weekend in the US. I assume they parked both rovers at nice outcrops and planned LONG Mossbauer integrations and the like... basically a 4 or 5 day pre-programmed sequence so people could have most of the weekend off.
OMG!
xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
edstrick
Nov 29 2005, 10:35 AM
Uh.... (imagined conversation)
Spouse to Rover Driver: "Either you figure some way to drive that (expletive deleted) thing over a clifF, or I'm getting a divorce. 90 days is one thing, but nearly two years and no end in sight, I'va HAD IT!"
It's not as though they were sitting there doing nothing.. It's just a decidedly unfortunate time for a glitch.
Bill Harris
Nov 29 2005, 10:48 AM
QUOTE
...I would sell my soul to &$*#@ and work 365 days a year , without salary or food to have their job...are they looking for rover drivers?
Send JPL a resume', apply for the job...
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
4800 Oak Grove Drive
Pasadena, California 91109
United States Of America
Toma B
Nov 29 2005, 10:59 AM
mike
Nov 29 2005, 04:02 PM
Women like attention. In particular, they like undivided attention into perpetuity for all eternity.
elakdawalla
Nov 29 2005, 06:51 PM
QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Nov 29 2005, 02:48 AM)
Send JPL a resume', apply for the job...
You joke, but check out this message that arrived in my inbox two weeks ago. Most of us are sadly too old (or too foreign
) for this opportunity, but I'll bet we know some people who aren't. It's not rover driving but I'll bet you could meet some rover drivers as an intern on MRO...
QUOTE
The Mars Program Office at JPL/NASA has released the first request for applications for Mars Flight Project Internships !!!
The program is an outstanding opportunity for science and engineering students to contribute to current Mars Flight Projects, and become part of the next generation of scientists.
Mars Flight Project Interns will work at the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory ( Pasadena, California ) directly with leading Mars scientists and engineers on the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) mission (http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/mro/). Initial Internships will run for a period of 6 months - from March 2006 to September 2006, on a full-time basis, with compensation for time/labor and relocation.
Opportunities include working with scientists on instrument calibration, science research, and aerobraking.
Internship eligibility requirements include being a student in good standing at an accredited university or college and U.S. citizenship or legal resident. The preferred education level for this internship program is junior or senior undergraduates or first or second year graduate students. University concurrence by department chair and an advisor recommendation will be required. Selection criteria will include (1) scholarship (GPA and publications) and experience; (2) education and career objectives and scientific interest; and (3) coursework. Internships are open to all students without regard to race, color, religion, national or ethnic origin, age, marital status, sex, military service, sexual orientation, or non-disqualifying disability. Additional Internship Program and Application information is available at
http://www.sop.usra.edu/mars_intern/.
Regards,
Jeff Cardenas
USRA Program Manager
In regards to what may be an anomaly happening over a holiday, you can be sure that there are rover drivers on duty AND that they were taking a good look at what was going on (if it was an anomaly). There are just not any quick fixes for anomalies, holiday or no holiday. If there really is an anomaly they have to have a lot of people feel their way very slowly through what might have caused the problem, and how to test their theories through new sequences of commands and images and then work out a solution. Just remember how long they were stuck in Purgatory Dune. Be patient! We are SO lucky to have these images released so fast so that we can sit here on this forum and speculate about whether there might be an anomaly or not. If this were nearly any other mission, we'd never have seen those pictures, and wouldn't know what was going on for weeks or months, if ever.
--Emily
odave
Nov 29 2005, 07:17 PM
Ah, if only I had seen an e-mail like that back in 1989....
Toma B
Nov 30 2005, 11:05 AM
Is there any news on that stuck IDD arm???
Notice that last Steve Squyres Mission Update was on October 24, 2005...
mars_armer
Nov 30 2005, 02:47 PM
Here's the information I have. At the beginning of the unstow sequence, the IDD tripped the circuitry that senses a motor stall (high current). The trip happened almost immediately after the azimuth motor started, which strongly suggests the arm is not physically jammed. (In that case, it would wind up before stalling.)
Hopefully it was just a glitch, such as a momentary current spike, but it takes a little while to sort out these things from a distance. To me, it seems unlikely that there is a permanent problem with the arm.
ElkGroveDan
Nov 30 2005, 03:52 PM
QUOTE (odave @ Nov 29 2005, 07:17 PM)
Ah, if only I had seen an e-mail like that back in 1989....
I was thinking the same thing but for me it would have been 1986. I even lived in Southern California at the time. JPL would have been a 20 minute commute from my parents house.
mike
Nov 30 2005, 04:45 PM
You could always go back (or just go, if it's the first time) to school. I'm tempted myself, but you know, I want to do everything..
Bill Harris
Nov 30 2005, 05:20 PM
>Ah, if only I had seen an e-mail like that back in 1989....
In 1976 I was just out of college and landed a job as a "senior administrative intern" inspecting sewers for the county. Yep, work as a geotechnical grunt with a title...
--Bill
odave
Nov 30 2005, 06:00 PM
Yep, JPL would have been a dream job for me. No regrets though, I still got to work with robots - they're just not as glamorous as these fly-boys/girls we talk about here.
Thanks for the IDD update, mars_armer.
dot.dk
Dec 1 2005, 12:38 AM
The Pancam tracking site indicates some diagnostic being done tosol!
659 p1157.01 0 0 0 0 0 0 idd_debug_hazcam_lossless_512x1024_subframe_pri_27
659 p2626.02 0 0 0 0 0 0 pancam_sky_radiance_thumbs_L457R247
659 p2900.03 0 0 0 0 0 0 microscopic_imager_health_check_image
659 Total 0 0 0 0 0 0
Edward Schmitz
Dec 1 2005, 01:08 AM
QUOTE (odave @ Nov 30 2005, 11:00 AM)
Yep, JPL would have been a dream job for me. No regrets though, I still got to work with robots - they're just not as glamorous as these fly-boys/girls we talk about here.
Thanks for the IDD update, mars_armer.
I've always wanted to work for JPL, too. But now I'm working for Raytheon/SBRS who built the Mini-TES, TES and THEMIS instruments, so I'm pretty excited about that. We also had a visit from Phil Christensen. I have been meaning to write here about that but I just haven't had the time.
But I was in the highbay at JPL with the rovers while they were being assembled. That was the thrill of a lifetime! I was about 30 feet from one of them. I'll never know which one.
ed
Sunspot
Dec 2 2005, 12:30 AM
Tom Tamlyn
Dec 2 2005, 02:28 AM
Yesterday the Planetary Society posted one of its excellent MER status reports.
http://planetary.org/news/2005/1130_Mars_E...ate_Spirit.htmlThe report quotes Albert Haldemann, rover deputy project scientist, as stating on November 29 that both rovers are in "good health."
This of course doesn't negate the possibility that JPL is keeping an emerging problem under its vest for now, but it's something.
TTT
[edit start] P.S. Whoops! whatonmars.com has just recorded a JPL Opportunity update that discusses the stalled arm.
http://whatonmars.com/?q=node/778I continue to be impressed (depressed?) by how unnecessarily complex and cryptic the jpl MER site is. I tried several times to find this update starting with
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html, and failed each time.
Toma B
Dec 2 2005, 06:49 AM
So it's hardware problem this time...
OPPORTUNITY UPDATE: Stalled Motor, Stowed Arm - sol 649-660, Dec 01, 2005:
"...This time, a shoulder-joint motor that is needed for unstowing the arm stalled, and the arm stayed stowed. In subsequent sols, engineers worked to narrow the range of possibilities for the cause of the stall. Among the remaining possibilities is that, after working more than seven times longer than originally planned, the lubrication is degrading...." QUOTE (Tom Tamlyn @ Dec 2 2005, 05:28 AM)
I continue to be impressed (depressed?) by how unnecessarily complex and cryptic the jpl MER site is. I tried several times to find this update starting with
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html, and failed each time.
I had that same problem yesterday...finaly I find updates (The Mission>Rover Update) but I had to go to sitemap to do it....
It's that "*"Spirit and Opportunity One Martian Year Anniversary"*" part of MER home page that's just a little bit on the wrong place...earlier there was direct link to the updates...
Sorry about my english...
CosmicRocker
Dec 2 2005, 08:39 AM
Thank you, Toma B. I finally found the lost updates with your help. I suspected it was a problem caused by the "One Martian Year Anniversary."
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status.htmlI noticed two more "unexpected sequences," recently. I wonder what that means. I think they should move the rover to jostle the arm, and then try again.
Tesheiner
Dec 2 2005, 09:43 AM
Imho, those "unexpected sequences" mean just that an actually executed sequence ID could not be found on a file containing the list of all planned sequences.
QUOTE
6. What unexpected sequences ran? (that is, sequences we did not enter in the SSF
list file /home/mersci/pan/B/ops/Sol_all_seq_list.txt)
Sol Seq.Ver
--- ---------
659 p1157.01
659 p2900.03
I remember seeing that same thing for a navcam post-drive panorama (<...searching on my notes...>, here! Oppy, sol 630), and my conclusion is that the sequence was actually planned but missed on the "description file".
Edited: More troubleshooting sequences planned for sol 600...
---
660 p1157.02 2 2 0 0 0 4 idd_hazcam_LOCO_512x1024_SF_pri27
660 p1157.02 2 2 0 0 0 4 idd_hazcam_LOCO_512x1024_SF_pri27
660 p1157.02 2 2 0 0 0 4 idd_hazcam_LOCO_512x1024_SF_pri27
...
660 p2900.03 1 0 0 1 1 3 microscopic_imager_health_check_image
660 p2900.03 1 0 0 1 1 3 microscopic_imager_health_check_image
660 p2900.03 1 0 0 1 1 3 microscopic_imager_health_check_image
Bill Harris
Dec 2 2005, 12:36 PM
I suspected that the IDD problem was a balky motor. Heck, at my age, my shoulder joint actuator is getting creaky, so I can sympathize. They'll work up a solution, though: after all, they've got a three-legged dog climbing mountains over at Gusev...
--Bill
Tesheiner
Dec 2 2005, 01:01 PM
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